Proving it works in edge cases is usually the hard part.
Your job is to deliver code you have proven to work
691–699 of 699 posts
Re: Your job is to deliver code you have proven to work
#692Earlier quoted context omitted.
That sounds like good advice for someone 1) in a less hierarchical organization, and 2) during a period when jobs are easy to get.
Or someone who 1) has the savings such that they aren't a wage slave (applies to any income level) 2) has any dignity People willingly put themselves in situations where they have no autonomy and no options by living their entire lives paycheck to paycheck or close enough to not make a difference.
That’s a pretty judgmental take. The only people with dignity in your formulation are independently wealthy.
If I stomped out the door as soon as I had to curb my tongue, I would never build the social and reputational capital required to be effective on bigger projects, and those are fun (to me).
Re: Your job is to deliver code you have proven to work
#693Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or someone who 1) has the savings such that they aren't a wage slave (applies to any income level) 2) has any dignity People willingly put themselves in situations where they have no autonomy and no options by living their entire lives paycheck to paycheck or close enough to not make a difference.
That’s a pretty judgmental take. The only people with dignity in your formulation are independently wealthy. If I stomped out the door as soon as I had to curb my tongue, I would never build the social and reputational capital required to be effective on bigger projects, and those are fun (to me).
We're in tech and this shit is happening in big tech companies. Yes, there's many of us who are not getting those wages but every one of them is independently wealthy.
Regardless, you are not a slave. Have a backbone. If you do not stand up for yourself you make it harder for others to do so. Your actions don't just affect you.
Re: Your job is to deliver code you have proven to work
#694Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, I run into this a lot too, hah. It's depressing but also pretty funny when you've got enough distance from it. My favorite was an ex-girlfriend working in HR interviewed a candidate with 15 years of experience, and was told to ask him to solve FizzBuzz in a language of his choice. (This is obviously a silly test for various reasons, but she was following orders.) She called me later that day because the guy cou…
> PS: I have laughed every time I've seen your username for the past year, and can't remember if I've told you this before. You haven't but thanks :D
Jean-Lukewarm Picard, they call him
Re: Your job is to deliver code you have proven to work
#695Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like ive been stuck in that cycle, and I know its partially just me being in my head about my career, but I really have been basically doing CRUD apps for a decade. Ive made a lot of front end forms, Ive kept up on the latest frameworks and trends, but at the core it really hasnt been dramatically different.
If you really distill it, I've been doing API Glue for about a quarter century. I connect to a 3rd party API with shitty specs and inconsistent output that doesn't follow even their spec, swear a bit and adjust my estimates[0]. Do some business stuff with it and shove it to another API. But I've done that now in ... six maybe seven different languages and a few different frameworks on top of that. And because both si…
another 'anyone but Java' developer! For me its not even the language or syntax, its the way people code it. Not every line of python ive ever read is gold, but every time i delve into Java code its like the developer was mad, at me specifically.
Re: Your job is to deliver code you have proven to work
#696Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would argue that the word "proof" in the title might be misleading you. From the post and the example he links, the point is that if you don't at least look at the running code, you don't know that it works. In my opinion the point is actually well illustrated by Chris's talk here: https://v5.chriskrycho.com/elsewhere/seeing-like-a-programme... (summary of the relevant section if you're not going to click) >>> In t…
> if you don't at least look at the running code, you don't know that it works. Your tests run the code. You know it works. I know the article is trying to say that testing is not comprehensive enough, but my experience disagrees. But I also recognize that testing is not well understood (quite likely the least understood aspect of computer science!) — and if you don't have a good understanding you can get caught not…
To be clear, I don't think we disagree very much
I've seen people only run tests and break things (because the thing they broke wasn't covered by tests), I've seen people try to fix things and not verify that their fix works, etc
Good tests are sufficient in many cases to be confident that your code still works. But in general tests don't cover a lot of fundamental behavior, and if you don't exercise that fundamental behavior in one way or another, then you don't know that your code works
Re: Your job is to deliver code you have proven to work
#697Earlier quoted context omitted.
if your tests cover the acceptance criteria as defined in the ticket, why is all htat other stuff necessary?
Acceptance criteria are often buggy themselves, and require more context to interpret and develop a solution.
thats impossible. Bugs are defined as when the code does not match the acceptance criteria.
Re: Your job is to deliver code you have proven to work
#698Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s a pretty judgmental take. The only people with dignity in your formulation are independently wealthy. If I stomped out the door as soon as I had to curb my tongue, I would never build the social and reputational capital required to be effective on bigger projects, and those are fun (to me).
We're in tech and this shit is happening in big tech companies. Yes, there's many of us who are not getting those wages but every one of them is independently wealthy. Regardless, you are not a slave. Have a backbone. If you do not stand up for yourself you make it harder for others to do so. Your actions don't just affect you.
People at ALL wage levels put themselves into wage slavery by setting up their finances in a way where they have very little buffer. Mortgage, car payments, savings levels, and all sorts of things combine into being even briefly unemployed is a terrific burden.
In that state, you can't say no, you can't stand up for yourself or anyone else, you can't make choices because choices have significant life effects. You don't have to have a $10MM trust fund to escape this. You just have to live far enough under your means that you have the savings and spending profile that allows you "fuck you" privileges.
Everybody living so close to broke all the time makes everything more expensive, particularly the competitive things like housing.
Re: Your job is to deliver code you have proven to work
#699Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not at all. Submitting untested PRs is a wildly outside of my experience. Having tests written to cover your code is a pre-requisite for having your PR reviewed on our team. "Does it work" aka passing manual testing, is literally the bare minimum before submitting a PR
If it's all vibe coded, how do you know — without review — that the new tests, for a new feature, test anything useful at all?
We don't, that's why we do review it. We also do things like communicate with teammates, have expectations of not wasting other people's time, and try to uphold standards and meet SLAs. Maybe people should worry about why their teams are so dysfunctional rather than how the code was produced