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Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

reuters.com

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Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#691

Post by madaxe_again »

robertoandred wrote: post #306
gravisultra wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true at all. The current conflict isn't some thousand year old feud. It was very much caused by the deliberate provocation and importation of European settlers via Zionism. It's easy to wave our hands and say "it's so complicated!" or "they've been doing this for thousands of years!" but it's not complicated, much like apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were not complicated. Colonialis…

Going to pretend that Jews haven’t lived there for thousands and thousands of years, before the Arabs arrived?

They are one and the same people. Only through the lens of ethnocentric histories is any distinction made.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#692

Post by mandmandam »

techdragon wrote: post #217
xg15 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite literally.

In genuinely morbid moment of being nerd snipped… I wonder if the ordinance dropped per square meter on Gaza is higher than the ordinance dropped be square meter on Vietnam… which was famously bombed so hard that detailed maps needed to be updated in order to accommodate how heavily cratered parts of the country were with heavily cratered hills and slopes literally shifting like a form of mechanical erosion by bombin…

Vietnam has an area of 331,000 square km. America dropped over 5 million tonnes of bombs on it over a ten year period.

That's 1.51 tonnes/km2/year.

Gaza has an area of 365 square km. Israel dropped over 85,000 tonnes of bombs dropped on it over one year [0].

That's 232.88 tonnes/km2/year. Over 150x more.

Don't forget! Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world - about 50 times more densely populated than 1970 Vietnam. 50% of whom are children.

So, Israel dropped 150x the bombs per year on Gaza, an area 50x more densely populated. Proportionally, Israel's bombardment is 7,500 times worse than Vietnam, on an area that's fully half children.

This last year has delegitimized the West's claims to any moral high ground, ever, far, far more than we yet realize.

0 - https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241107-israel-dropped-ov...

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#693

Post by bawolff »

seventhtiger wrote: post #599
bawolff wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keeping hostages is a war crime. A fair thing would be for Hamas to follow its obligations under international law and unconditionally release them (before anyone says, well israel did X which also isn't allowed, 2 wrongs don't make a right). > more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii How are you quantifying this? I'd be surprised if Gaz…

Israel's prisons are full of Palestinian hostages kidnapped from Gaza and the West Bank. Their courts have no jurisdiction over them and have no issue calling anyone a terrorist.

A hostage and a prisoner is not the same thing under international law.

> Their courts have no jurisdiction over them

Israel is the occupying power. International law requires that an occupying power provide law & order, so it does have the authority to persecute people who commit crimes (although they are required to keep the laws the same as they were pre-occupation, with some exceptions).

They are also allowed to keep prisoners of war (although i am not sure if hamas counts as that as they are a non-state group). They are allowed to persecute war crimes that enemy combatants commit (as long as they give a fair trial)

> have no issue calling anyone a terrorist.

The phrase "terrorist" doesn't really have much meaning under international law. Israel is free to call its enemies dirty names if it wants, there isn't any rule against calling your enemies mean names.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#694

Post by awaywithcovid »

gravisultra wrote: post #296
boringg wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is a good development. Everything in this part of the world is on a rinse snd repeat cycle ever since the Assyrians and the Babylonians - it hasn't changed much except maybe its actually a little more humane then it was in the past (which says something). Sorry for the cynical take but this just does a temporary stop.

That's not true at all. The current conflict isn't some thousand year old feud. It was very much caused by the deliberate provocation and importation of European settlers via Zionism. It's easy to wave our hands and say "it's so complicated!" or "they've been doing this for thousands of years!" but it's not complicated, much like apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were not complicated. Colonialis…

"The current conflict isn't some thousand year old feud"

Well, actually, it is.

There were 1200 years of war, conquest, slavery, ethnic cleansing, genocide and apartheid up until the caliphate was defeated and broken up in 1920/1924. For 1200 years, non-muslims lived under apartheid (Dhimmi). Up until that point, Islamic supremacism was as firmly established as white supremacism was in America.

I suppose if America (which itself was built on war, conquest, slavery, ethnic cleansing, genocide, and apartheid) was defeated in WWI, broken up into various nations, and some land was made available to the Native Americans to build their own sovereign nation, you would be against that ? After all, at that time, Native Americans accounted for only .25% of the population. Since there were so few of them it would make no sense for them to have their own nation.

Wars have consequences. Many ethnic groups lost their lands due to the expansion of the caliphate over 1200 years. The caliphate was then defeated, and things have changed.

"... ethno-centric racism are never good".

While in no way saying that this supports the idea that "ethno-centric racism" is good, you should read the constitutions of the 22 Arab countries in the Arab League. They have, as their basic principals that they are Arab/Muslim countries, and have Islam/Sharia as their law. So, are all of these countries also illegitimate ? Or, just Israel ? Or maybe America should change its constitution to declare that America is a white European country based on Christian law ?

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#695

Post by ignoramous »

yes_really wrote: post #681
ignoramous wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should have taken the deal when it was first offered It is a foregone conclusion that (the despots in charge of) Hamas aren't operating on the same trade-offs as you & I. Despite the toll, they'll consider it a victory if the IDF withdraws from all its positions. Not taking the deal has indeed caused more mayhem, but on the flipside, Likud+ are being dragged through the mud, and for some, they were made to loo…

Why are you using scare quotes for "terrorists"? Do you dispute that Hamas are terrorists? Do you think that the Hamas' attacks aimed at civilians, such as Oct 7th, or indiscriminate launching of missiles it performed for decades, are not terror attacks?

> Why are you using scare quotes for "terrorists"?

The scare quotes are for Likud+ and/or the IDF.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#697

Post by cultofmetatron »

raxxor wrote: post #686
cultofmetatron wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's all Israel's fault, after the 1200 people slaughtered on October 7 This did not start on oct 7th. I too was ignorant about the situation in palestine but its obvious after just a bit of research that israel isn't a good faith actor here. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MknerYjob0w&t=37s&ab_channel... - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoFjbnvkmQ0&ab_channel=Amnes... - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYgwKhzHe…

You have linked to all kinds of videos that can only be described as malicious propaganda, and yes, that sadly includes the Amnesty ones. A few years ago that org drifted in a strange direction. But these videos try to manipulate you.

> You have linked to all kinds of videos that can only be described as malicious propaganda, and yes, that sadly includes the Amnesty ones.

ok so let me get this straight.

Amnesty international, the guardian and the wallstreet journal are spreading malicious propaganda? is that what you're trying to say

and is the 20 thousand dead children from israel's brazen military campaign also malicious propaganda?

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#698

Post by katamari-damacy »

kelthuzad wrote: post #500
katamari-damacy wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erdogan is a war criminal too. And I’m sure the ones before him were not much more enlightened about this issue. I wonder what Ataturk thought about the Armenian genocide. I will google that to get educated on what he thought because he is about the only leader in Turkey’s history including Ottoman history that deserves respect.

>And I’m sure the ones before him were not much more enlightened about this issue. They weren't. Ataturk was literally part of the secular CUP movement which committed the genocide. That secular party also known as the "Young Turks" did not see themselves as Ottomans but Turks only. Atatürk needed international legitimacy for the new Turkish Republic that's why he tried to distance himself from the CUP leadership alt…

Wow thank u for this. Ottoman history is part of my history. May my paternal grandfather was in the same army class as Ataturk and some point one of my cousins had a letter addressed to him from Ataturk sent to all his former classmates calling to join the rebellion and my grandfather refused saying he was loyal to the state. We come from an old Ottoman tribe that settled in Kirkuk (now Kurdistan) and my grandfather was then guven land in Babel (Babylon) where my dad was born. Long painful and very interesting history. My dad’s maternal grandfather protected the Jews from pogoms in the 1940s under British rule (paid for police protection for entire neighbourhoods) and remembered by history, including surprisingly as corroborated by ChatGPT.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#699

Post by SurgicalDoc_UK »

xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

Exactly. This war has really messed up the world and Israel for generations to come. Never mind the devastation in Gaza.

But the Palestinians cant keep living under occupation. Everyone should continue to exert pressure for a free Palestine or the cycle will continue. The fundamental goal of the current Israeli government is to never have a Palestinian state, which will always be a major barrier unless sanctions are introduced.

Trump was interesting.. Im sure we’ll find out one day what it was all about. But if he really was the catalyst in this I will take back my words and eat humble pie. Someone has suggested the ceasefire is just a show, so we watch carefully.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#700

Post by Urahandystar »

southernplaces7 wrote: post #629
xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

>And never mind that Israel still has a fundamentalist, authoritarian government that is actively at work undermining democratic structures and civil rights even inside the state As opposed to the neighboring states (and Hamas), which mostly have religiously tolerant, fully democratic governments that fully respect civil rights, and which of course have never openly stated that they want Israel to disappear from exis…

Such an insane take, how is adding another despotic goverment to the mix going to help?
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