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Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

theguardian.com

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Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#691

Post by oytis »

gck1 wrote: post #258

Funny story - there were some protests in my country some months ago. We're a semi-autocratic country on the verge of becoming a dictatorship. During the protests, the government used masked 'civilians,' or what you'd call 'titushkis,' to beat up activists at their home addresses or elsewhere in public. We were also getting calls from fake numbers on our personal numbers with threats. A channel was created on Telegra…

Didn't protesters use Telegram for coordination as well? Lack of moderation sure hits both ways, but is the balance really in favour of governments? I'd be surprised if this is the case.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#693

Post by topspin »

entropyneur wrote: post #688
topspin wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russian controlled medium There are a large number of highly active Ukrainian channels on Telegram, all about as anti-Russian as you would expect. There are Ukrainian government ministers operating channels on Telegram. How does that occur on a "Russian controlled medium?" I don't speak either Russian or Ukrainian. I know none of these channel operators. Yet I've been granted approval on a number of "private" Ukrai…

Russian-controlled is an overstatment, but it's definitely Russian-influenced. There seems to have been some kind of balance - Durov allowed the Russians some limited control in exchange for being allowed to operate in Russia. The publicly visible manifestation of this deal was, for instance, the ban on "Путь домой" (Way home) channel where the wifes of mobilized men organized their movement. I'm not stating this nec…

Путь домой is an active channel. It has 53,690 subscribers. There is a "FAKE" label (first time I've seen that...) and an associated warning: "Warning: Many users report that this account impersonates a famous person or organisation[sic]." There are regular posts, the most recent being 31 minutes ago. Translating about 10 of them, I see a many parents complaining about the treatment of conscripts.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#694

Post by hcfman »

The people behind the "Think of the children" type argument for interception expect people to implicitly understand that. By the same token, I would expect people to implicitly understand what with great powers needs great accountability.

However... the same governments, and here I'm talking primarily about the one I know the Netherlands, has absolutely ZERO accountability against severe human rights abuses. You will get absolutely nowhere trying to hold government abuse accountable.

In the Netherlands, it took around 25,000 victims before any kind of traction was gained and primarily due to one politician, Peter Omzigt. And others turned against him.

Even now, you have princess Laurentien coming under heavy fire for trying to help the victims of the government abuse here.

So infite powers and less than zero accountability? No thanks. It's actually less than ZERO accountability because attempting to hold someone accountable will bring you under attack.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#695

Post by kelnos »

apopapo wrote: post #376
sega_sai wrote: post #322

A bunch of people in comments here seem to misunderstand what telegram is. It is not just a messaging app, it is essentially a platform like twitter, with channels, hundreds of thousands of subscribers to those. While I fully support E2EE communication with no back-doors, I think it is perfectly fair for governments to have some control to take down large channels that are clearly against the law. I do not know the t…

So you endorse governments from the middle-east being in their right to delete anything they see as "illegal" because they are blasphemous for example?

I think that interpretation of GP's stance is pretty uncharitable.

If the thing they want to delete is run by an entity that has a physical presence in that country, then they -- unfortunately -- have the right to get that material deleted.

For better or worse, we are all bound by the laws of the place where we physically reside. If we want to do or allow things online that are legal where we are, but are illegal in other countries, then we shouldn't visit those countries.

It doesn't matter if anyone "endorses" repressive governments in doing their repressive things; they are legally able to do those things to people physically present within their borders. That's just the reality of the situation.

France claims Durov allowed stuff that's illegal in France. He went to France, so France has the ability to punish Durov for his alleged misdeeds. It doesn't matter if we think that's right or wrong; that's just how the world works.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#696

Post by namaria »

chucke1992 wrote: post #23
vessenes wrote: post #19

Not clear right now if France thinks he was actively complicit with the four horsemen listed, or if just the act of running Telegram makes him complicit in their eyes, or something in the middle, e.g. they asked for help and Telegram turned them down. This will be an interesting case to watch -- I don't believe there are any western nations that want non-locally-backdoored messaging of any sort -- but generally my un…

> I don't believe there are any western nations that want non-locally-backdoored messaging of any sort But that's what exactly they want no? EU is literally implementing a regulation that will allow to "circumvent end-to-end encryption to address child sexual abuse material". I believe it failed to pass recently, but they will try again - and nothing stops countries to implement it independently. I think France is th…

> literally implementing

> it failed to pass recently

These two sentences cannot be both true

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#697

Post by LightBug1 »

chucke1992 wrote: post #23
vessenes wrote: post #19

Not clear right now if France thinks he was actively complicit with the four horsemen listed, or if just the act of running Telegram makes him complicit in their eyes, or something in the middle, e.g. they asked for help and Telegram turned them down. This will be an interesting case to watch -- I don't believe there are any western nations that want non-locally-backdoored messaging of any sort -- but generally my un…

> I don't believe there are any western nations that want non-locally-backdoored messaging of any sort But that's what exactly they want no? EU is literally implementing a regulation that will allow to "circumvent end-to-end encryption to address child sexual abuse material". I believe it failed to pass recently, but they will try again - and nothing stops countries to implement it independently. I think France is th…

In the UK, I have a stormtrooper standing behind me in my bedroom as I type this. He just asked me to explain the context of the message I'm writing to you now.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#698

Post by kelnos »

akira2501 wrote: post #506
sega_sai wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A channel that incites violence is against the law (in some countries). A channel selling drugs is against the law. These are few examples. I do not how the specific details of the French case to comment on the specifics. I could believe the arrest is poorly justified, but I have reasonably belief in their justice system.

[flagged]

> How does an inanimate object incite violence or sell drugs?

Please stop being so (seemingly-intentionally) obtuse about this. Certainly the participants of the channel are the ones who incite violence or sell drugs. But some laws also make it illegal to "host" the people who do those sorts of things. A Telegram channel can host these people.

> If France can't access these channels, how do they know the violence or drugs are actually occurring _in_ France?

They can access those channels.

> And if they could know that, what does Telegram have to do with it?

Telegram is hosting the content, and apparently under French law, the host can also be liable.

> Wouldn't they just be able to go and arrest the violent person or the drug dealer?

Not if they don't know where the people are, because Telegram hides their real identities and locations.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#699

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

Installed Element on my phone and asked my contacts to do the same, just in case TG dies. Few of them did. It works just fine for texts, photos, small videos. Certainly not as fast or feature rich as TG, but good enough. Might spring up my own server if need be.

Looks like a better alternative to all that centralized drek.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#700

Post by attendant3446 »

T-A wrote: post #79
chucke1992 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe there are any western nations that want non-locally-backdoored messaging of any sort But that's what exactly they want no? EU is literally implementing a regulation that will allow to "circumvent end-to-end encryption to address child sexual abuse material". I believe it failed to pass recently, but they will try again - and nothing stops countries to implement it independently. I think France is th…

You might be surprised to learn who's doing the pushing: https://www.wired.com/story/europes-moral-crusader-lays-down... https://www.statewatch.org/news/2024/july/police-should-have...

No wonder it's Swedish, a country with zero privacy
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