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10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

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Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#691

Post by EGreg »

RubberbandSoul wrote: post #662
init wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you explain in what way did this manifest in Sweden for instance? Or have any data/evidence besides some semi-vague claims about antisemitism and some immutable characteristics of European societies (which are hardly monolithic to begin with). If you live in Sweden then you will also know that the state puts refugees in the same areas (Rinkeby, Vivalla, Tensta, etc ...). These areas are then labeled as unsafe b…

> state puts refugees in the same areas (Rinkeby, Vivalla, Tensta, etc ...). No it doesn't. Refugees are placed in municipalities all over Sweden but most choose to move to the big cities as soon as they can and end up in these districts because they are the cheapest. > slightly elevated crime rate. Citation needed. Compared to what? Casual crime is very high compared to traditional Swedish society. Also a lot of cri…

In my opinion, refugees should be spread out and placed among neighbors who are willing to interact positively with them and invite them to stuff so they can integrate, and NOT allowed to relocate their residence for 5-10 years. That will be better for the country. Beggars can’t be choosers, they’re happy to get asylum.

How to enforce that: fine whoever sells/rents to them outside where they are supposed to live. And threaten to deport them if they move without the years passing or showing they’ve integrated / learned the language / culture etc.

Obviously, exceptions can be made for reasons of safety or being closer to a job they got, but then the same procedure should be followed (spread out and surrounded by neighbors willing to help integrate them).

They should also have access to resource to accelerate the cultural integration, like meetups and schools etc.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#692

Post by BenFranklin100 »

rangestransform wrote: post #622
BenFranklin100 wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If voters are concerned about crime, then the need to educated that immigrants, even illegal immigrants, have crime rates about the same as Americans at large.

Because legal immigrants are both pre-filtered and have something to lose, it’s more reasonable to take the approach that one crime is too many with immigration, rather than comparing with the crime rate of society at large.

This is a MAGA talking point so there are people who agree with your take. I think that is an unreasonable and ridiculous position given its impossibility. In light of how much the US benefits from immigration overall, it’s also shortsighted.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#693

Post by [deleted] »

weweweoo wrote: post #670
Ma8ee wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Swede, we have always been very bad letting foreigners in. Most, even otherwise liberal and well educated, have been low key racist. One part has been that anyone not speaking perfect Swedish has been seen as bit stupid. Having a foreign sounding name has made it much harder to get to an interview. Imagine growing up with hard working parents with engineering or medical degrees working as cleaners because no one…

To be honest, it's also the quality of migrants that Sweden receives. The migrants joining gangs or getting radicalized in Sweden are primarily ones who arrived as asylum seekers, usually without much language and marketable job market skills, and with conservative cultural background that can be a burden. This is a big contract to the United States, which doesn't receive anywhere near as many refugees (adjusted to i…

[deleted]

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#694

Post by matheusmoreira »

inglor_cz wrote: post #58
paleotrope wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba would be quite a desirable place to live if it wasn't a socialist authoritarian state

As the old joke from behind the Iron Curtain said... Q: "What would happen in Saudi Arabia if Communism triumphed there?" A: "First, shortage of oil, later, shortage of sand." Edit: for all the downvoters, shortages were our daily lived experience when I was a kid. I still remember chasing such rare stuff as "kid's sneakers" or "toilet paper". And Czechoslovakia was still better off than neighbouring Poland, where yo…

Reading comments such as yours is bone chilling.

My country (Brazil) has been slowly becoming socialist over decades. Today we live under the rule of a socialist president, a communist supreme court. This is reality despite the fact Venezuela and Argentina are our neighbours. There are way too many people here who actually believe in this nonsense.

I worry a lot about the future.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#695

Post by achenet »

noduerme wrote: post #649
wwtrv wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And then, once again, Europe blames the groups it refuses to accept. Can you explain in what way did this manifest in Sweden for instance? Or have any data/evidence besides some semi-vague claims about antisemitism and some immutable characteristics of European societies (which are hardly monolithic to begin with). It's not that I even necessarily disagree with what you're saying but unfortunately your comment is 8…

I should be clear... I'm not talking about Nordic countries regarding Jews. Swedes, Norwegians and Danes are considered heroes in this regard, and the historical analogies to the rest of Western Europe don't hold. There was no history of ghettoization or discrimination there. I am not applying my criticism there. It should be said that the pre-WW2 Jewish population of Sweden was miniscule, but that Swedes took great…

French Jew here.

I agree that our social, educational and cultural institutions are doing an absolutely atrocious job of integrating immigrant populations.

Despite that, I find that most people I know from the Maghreb are actually quite well integrated, mostly because as an educated, well-to-do person I hang around with other educated, well-to-do people and they tend to be quite nice to get along with.

I grew up in Houston (arrived age 6, left just before my 18th birthday), and honestly I find the way 'native'/anglo Texans treat Mexicans (more properly, Hispanics, but over there everyone calls them Mexicans) to be probably slightly worse on average than the way French people treat people of African descent.

However, the French welfare state + my god our educational system is so fucked it's not even funny mean that it's possible to get certain pathological cases where an immigrant will move to France, live off the welfare state while railing against everything French (post-colonial hatred) and then use that sweet welfare money to plan and execute terrorist attacks.

I don't blame that one the innate character of French people though, just on badly designed social institutions. Our current welfare state was modified by well-meaning leftists who were aiming to make something more egalitarian, but instead made everything worse, and then modified by well-meaning neoliberals who were aiming to make something more efficient, but instead made everything worse, and now it's starting to look like a big ugly pile of legacy code written in Perl.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#696

Post by BenFranklin100 »

CamelCaseName wrote: post #573
BenFranklin100 wrote: post #500

The United States is singular in its ability to assimilate immigrants. It is our one true superpower. The people who come to our country, like these Cubans fleeing their country, often come from societies where they lack freedoms Americans take for granted. Many Americans scarcely even acknowledge these freedoms but immigrants with their outside eye see them clearly. In doing so they refresh our founding ideals of li…

What a cruel thing to say when it is precisely because of the United States that the Cuban economy has been thoroughly crushed.

This is false. The US does not interfere with Cuban internal economy nor does the US Cuban trade embargo prevent Cuba from trading with other countries. Cuba’s disastrous economy is a direct consequence of the policies of its communist government, not external forces.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#697

Post by achenet »

noduerme wrote: post #420
bko wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a relevant question. You are blaming it on the particular group of migrants involved in the case of Europe right now. But historically Europe has ghettoized other groups. My understanding is that pre-WW2 Europe you had community groups that dealt with their people. So in a Jewish neighborhood, you had powerful Rabbis or other religious leaders that dole out law. These unofficial community leaders were given a…

I agree with your negative version of the point: >> if you don't accept a countries values, you should not be allowed to move there But in the positive version, I think in America it is much easier to integrate if you do accept American values than it is in some European countries. And this is because, as you alluded, the only thing that makes America a unified country is a social agreement to certain shared values l…

> Even France where many of those values originated has an ethnic nationalist core which denies integration to those who are not ethnically French.

disagree with this as a French person.

That "ethnic nationalist core" is the French equivalent of Trump supporters who say "America is a white (anglo) Christian nation".

the country currently known as France was originally Celtic Gaul, which was then conquered by Romans, then by various Germanic tribes, most notably the Franks who gave the country it's current name, and didn't really unify until fairly late. Even to this day, you'll find people in Brittany identify more as 'Breton' then French sometimes, despite the efforts of the French state to kill that local identity in the late 19th century. We're a nation of bastards, and always have been.

You'll have sad, sorry people on the far right who conjure up some imaginary ideal of a "true, ethnic French character", but it's like the KKK members in America talking about being 'true Americans'. It's a fallacy.

The people with high levels of melanin with parents that arrived in the country less than 50 years ago playing for our national soccer team are, at least to my mind, just as French as my father whose family lived around Saint-Etienne for the past 300+ years, even if some of them act like the equivalent of "that girl from Jersey shore saying she's Italian because her last name is Spaghetti despite not actually speaking a word of Italian and having never been there" sometimes. :)

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#698

Post by jimnotgym »

noduerme wrote: post #322
gottorf wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's…

> One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault?

Or even ask, how much should they integrate? I'm in the UK. Jewish communities seem to have held on to a certain cohesion, and kept their traditions alive well past when the natives gave up on their own traditions and communities

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#699

Post by WilTimSon »

gottorf wrote: post #201
labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations, and remain ghettoized with low employment and high crime rates (vastly higher than the native population, for certain categories of crime).

Does it suggest that, though? It suggests that, in the specific conditions that were presented to those groups, they turned to crime. However, we can't pretend that the previous generations of immigrants had exclusively good experiences and quality of life, even in Europe. Obviously, some countries tried their best but in the past decades we had far less experience on proper integration (we as in the collective we, no country has worked out some perfect plan on it).

In fact, certain countries specifically created neighbourhoods (ghettos) for immigrant populations, all with positive intentions. Can't really blame the migrants for then becoming "ghettoized" in such a scenario. Granted, I know of other countries that specifically did not do that and still had struggles, which just goes to show how the whole thing is a minefield, where good intentions can clash with harsh reality.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#700

Post by nextweek2 »

wkat4242 wrote: post #11
giancarlostoro wrote: post #6

I wonder what a sensible way forward for Cubans is, and their government. What would it take for the US to lift sanctions (I assume a radical shift within Cuba's government), and for Cuba itself (as a whole) to restructure their government in a way that would benefit them and everyone. Cuba would be a great travel destination. Their cigars aren't as on par anymore as far as I know, but there's potential there, Nicara…

Why does the US still have sanctions on them anyway? The missile crisis was 50 years ago. It's time to forgive.

It’s an authoritarian government without free elections right on the US doorstep. Cubans are oppressed.
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