Live data from Hacker News

Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

wsj.com

691–700 of 712 posts

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#691
post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because California pushes their FAIR plan which is expensive and has terrible coverage. It's a corrupt and unethical solution for the state to recoup its budget deficit.

Do you have evidence that they make money on their plan? My impression is that insurance of last resort isn’t cheap to provide, they’re only getting the people that were too high risk to qualify for a cheaper commercial plan.

No, only my anecdote. The state is offering significantly reduced coverage for more than double the cost of previous coverage. Getting the state plan still requires you to get additional private coverage in order to satisfy mortgage insurance requirements. I think it would be impossible for a layman to just give you "evidence" that will fit whatever arbitrary checkbox is formally needed. I cannot fathom a way the state isn't profiting here and both the state and insurance companies are exposing homeowners to incredible burdens.

Now you frame this like I am too high risk or people in this capacity are too high risk, but that is the whole problem. Insurance cos are inconsistently making these determinations and the state's governance is directly responsible for the lack of regulation and enforcement. Nothing in my area has changed, but the insurance company has enacted the equivalent of ex post facto evaluation due to the state of CA. As example, my roof in great condition, passed inspection when purchase property a few years ago. I don't have certificates or invoices for repairs done to it in the 50 years of my home's life because I've only owned the property for a few years. The insurance company canceled my insurance stating I refused to provide such an invoice. They also claimed I'm now in a dangerous fire zone (I'm not) which I wasn't a year ago. They also claimed to need invoice of repairs for my plumbing, which again, is in wonderful condition. They stated simply providing inspection receipts wouldn't cut it and expensive certificates were needed. Anyways, I doubt you will read this but it's ridiculous and I'm not the only one in this state going through it.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We used to have a trampoline. We never once told our insurer about it. When I first applied for the insurance (at the same time we bought the house), I have no memory of being asked if we had one (we didn't at the time). I don't remember ever seeing that question from them, although I can't be completely certain it wasn't on some piece of paper and I didn't notice it. If they never ask, I'm under no obligation to tel…

Look, I hear you, but at some point this has to be on you. The CPSC has a thing dedicated to trampolines. The Mayo Clinic has articles about it. It is a huge cause of injuries of minors around the country. I'll grant that this is slightly more obscure an issue than swimming pools, but there are tons of swimming pool buyers who would make similar claims ("nobody told me swimming pools were that risky, this is just fin…

There were some neighbors down the street from my parents that put a trampoline right next to several decorative boulders. These weren't small - same height as the trampoline (at least 4 feet) and very jagged. Thankfully it disappeared again within a couple of days but my god can people be STUPID.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#693
post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you dispense with insurance entirely, how do you deal with catastrophic expenses? If insurance can accurately predict losses that will occur and price accordingly, you are paying exactly the same amount plus overhead, on a similar schedule for insurance as directly paying for losses yourself without insurance. The cost spreading effect (both over time and over individuals) is a direct consequence of the inabilit…

> If insurance can accurately predict losses that will occur and price accordingly, you are paying exactly the same amount plus overhead, on a similar schedule for insurance as directly paying for losses yourself without insurance. The hypothetical that I'm working with is that the insurer can perfectly price insurance by perfectly estimating the _risk_ or _expected loss_ for each individual customer. They can then p…

> The hypothetical that I'm working with is that the insurer can perfectly price insurance by perfectly estimating the _risk_ or _expected loss_ for each individual customer.

So is mine. But my premise is that the true risk (that is, what uncertainty cannot be eliminated with sufficient information about the current state physical universe) is small, most of the apparent risk is just insufficient current data or an insufficient model; things like the drone data gathering are an attempt to narrow the first problem, and the second will improve over time with scientific progress.

As those improve, the expected loss converges toward the actual loss (and does so at any given proximity on progressively shorter timelines.)

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#694
post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’re either rent controlled or bullshit. Neither. Shitty apartment and a lot of hunting lol. And it was under $1k until COVID started. Going to be $1300 at my next renewal in July. > 10x12x1200=$144k just gone Yes. I'll admit I'm not familiar with the logistics but I assume the government refunds the homeowner's property taxes and reimburses for costs like appliances, repairs, landscaping, etc. when the time come…

>I assume the government refunds the homeowner's property taxes and reimburses for costs like appliances, repairs, landscaping, etc. when the time comes for them to sell? So you think your landlord is eating those costs and not passing them on to you in your rent? You seriously think they are running a charity?!?

> So you think your landlord is eating those costs and not passing them on to you in your rent? You seriously think they are running a charity?!?

Obviously not, but since my rent is low enough then I don't care. They can only be passing $1200 in costs along to me because that's what I'm paying.

My rent being lower than costs for homes is what works in my favor. I lose money forever but it's a relatively small amount of money. The rest of my money can go somewhere else.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#695
post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have evidence that they make money on their plan? My impression is that insurance of last resort isn’t cheap to provide, they’re only getting the people that were too high risk to qualify for a cheaper commercial plan.

No, only my anecdote. The state is offering significantly reduced coverage for more than double the cost of previous coverage. Getting the state plan still requires you to get additional private coverage in order to satisfy mortgage insurance requirements. I think it would be impossible for a layman to just give you "evidence" that will fit whatever arbitrary checkbox is formally needed. I cannot fathom a way the sta…

I did read it, thanks for laying out your experience.

The evidence I’d look for is something like their revenue vs payout over maybe the last 5 years?

I think a lot of this stuff can be very unintuitive, because we look around, and everything seems fine, and nothing seems to have changed, but they’re operating at a bulk statistical level, and their models revised on recent trends are probably telling them that they can’t profitably insure you for the amounts they’re allowed to charge. Some of that is that labor to rebuild/replacement cost has gotten much more expensive (we see that in our insurance rate changes despite being in an area with very little catastrophic risk).

And CA politicians’ response is probably some crowd pleasing but ultimately harmful “you can’t profiteer off our people, you’re not allowed to raise rates more than 3%” or something. So the only winning move becomes not to play except in the areas where you can make that work.

It does sound like they were just trying to find a way that they could cancel your policy without getting in trouble with the state insurance commission, though I don’t know enough about insurance to say if/why they’d need to.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The onus is still on the signing party to read them, but they are afforded the opportunity to notice among many clauses these are ones that deserve special attention. It's not unreasonable to expect a party to a contract to read all of it. If one's case is based on "I didn't read it", the other party should prevail. > Consumers gain a little power back (though still far from equal footing). The consumer can always…

> It's not unreasonable to expect a party to a contract to read all of it. Walter, you are a very smart guy. And this is a site which attracts people with above average intelligence and education. It is easy to forget that not everyone is as smart or well-educated as we are. I know a guy who has been diagnosed with borderline intellectual functioning (i.e. his IQ is above the cutoff for intellectual disability, but o…

There is a concept called a "legally consenting adult". The presumption is that a legally consenting adult is capable of signing a contract. This is why, for example, contracts signed by minors are not enforceable.

If someone is borderline on this, it's fine if the court steps in to give him some slack.

But the defense in the case under consideration was not lack of mental acuity, unclear legalese, ambiguity, coercion, or power imbalance.

It was "didn't read the contract".

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#697
post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hard to ‘refrain’ from buying health insurance in the middle of cancer treatment eh? The thing you're insuring against in this case is a cancer diagnosis. If you're insured when that happens, the insurance company should now be on the hook for your lifetime worth of cancer treatment regardless of whether you pay them any more premiums. That isn't how we implement it, the existing regulations don't work like that, b…

You can’t get a mortgage without house insurance. Things like fire danger risk tend to change after the home is built as new data comes in. Health insurance isn’t implemented that way, as you acknowledge, exposing folks to exactly that risk. You seem to be stuck in theoretical. I’m talking about actual behaviors.

> You can’t get a mortgage without house insurance.

You don't have to get a mortgage to live. You can save up and pay cash, or you can rent. Or you can pay the higher premiums that reflect your actual risk.

> Things like fire danger risk tend to change after the home is built as new data comes in.

In which case this is a different class of insurance that you could buy if you wanted it. You wouldn't be insuring against fire, you'd be insuring against the risk of your property value going down to reflect higher fire insurance premiums if the fire risk goes up. But why should you be forced to buy that type of insurance if you don't want it, or have it priced into everyone else's fire insurance premiums?

And regardless of that, why should someone who buys their house after the fire risk is known to be high be subsidized by everyone else?

> Health insurance isn’t implemented that way, as you acknowledge, exposing folks to exactly that risk.

It isn't implemented that way because of regulations, but the issue is what kind of regulations there should be. The existing regulations are extremely inefficient -- Americans pay more for healthcare/insurance than any other country, regardless of whether the other country has a public or private healthcare system.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#698
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but in the US, it depends on whether could have reasonably expected that their stuff was hidden. If your roof is sloped so that a person on the street could get the same information by walking around the block, then aerial surveillance is just a faster way to get that public observation. In contrast, if you set up a high fence around your pool in order to sunbathe naked, aerial photography would probably be an…

Privacy in the US is defined as property rights, and your private property does not extend infinitely upwards into space. Anything over a certain high is public and regulated, and so if it is visible from above, it is not protected. Otherwise, it would be illegal to fly a plane or even a hot air balloon pretty much anywhere, and even things like google maps satellite view couldn't exist.

Why then is the opposite true? Just playing devils advocate. Do you see the lopsidedness between the two? They [the 'rights'] don't extend infinitely into space. okay, fair enough. Why does theirs extend all the way to the ground? Exceptions / loopholes could be made to accommodate non-visually penetrable mediums and means, like weather technology. And if the government really wanted to spy on their own (as if), they could just say it was a weather balloon that had the legal clearance. if it ever crashed, I mean. point is, there's lots of language that could be defined in order to allow spying, allow air traffic, but not allow a telescope, nay-- microscope, effectively--of studying us down here on earth. while naked. (us, I mean, maybe them, too). the government is just going to do whatever the hell it wants anyway, just put that in the legal work, gov: do as you will. problem solved

question: can a spy telescope, when it comes to apertures, lenses, focal point and scale, but most importantly perhaps, intent, be considered a microscope depending on which way its pointing? it seems to me that given the size of earth, the size of humans in realtion to that, how is it any different than monitoring a bacterial colony Wirth a microscope? functionally. its not different, right? or perhaps its more nuanced than functionally, but surely its closer to being a microscope, than a "telescope"?

street maps could definitely still exist. I saw a project here on hn that showed a land surveying satellite that was able to track land parcels and shade them accordingly using AI. and, if they can blur faces out I know they can blur rooftops and naked bums.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not unreasonable to expect a party to a contract to read all of it. Walter, you are a very smart guy. And this is a site which attracts people with above average intelligence and education. It is easy to forget that not everyone is as smart or well-educated as we are. I know a guy who has been diagnosed with borderline intellectual functioning (i.e. his IQ is above the cutoff for intellectual disability, but o…

The law (in the US and the Commonwealth) already has a concept that captures the difficulty people with intellectual disability have with contracts: capacity.

Borderline intellectual functioning isn't (under current definitions) considered intellectual disability though.

A person with borderline intellectual functioning can absolutely have capacity to understand a contract sufficiently to agree with it when its terms are explained to them in clear plain English, yet lack the same capacity when they are presented in dense legalese. Legal doctrines of "capacity" tend not to deal with that situation very well, because they focus on the capabilities of one of the parties rather than the form in which the contract is presented. Also, a lot of people with mild cognitive issues (not just borderline IQ, also other issues like age-related cognitive decline, early stage dementia, early stage hepatic encephalopathy, etc) are unaware of those issues, in denial about them, or too ashamed to admit them, so may not benefit from legal rules designed to apply to them specifically, whereas they can stand to benefit from legal rules (like demanding unexpected clauses to be stated prominently to be enforceable) designed to apply to everybody.

Re: Home insurers are dropping customers based on aerial images

#700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many industries are regulated and have to provide good faith justifications for price increases. The burden of proof is on them, not the service recipient.

I’m not sure you read my post then as it explains I’ve seen first-hand actual loss data because of supply chain & other costs leading to an unprofitable offering being denied by the state without any valid rationale other than “he didn’t see any cars outside his window”. The point is that regulators have not been allowing rate increases with good faith justifications for years and now that they see their actions have…

>“he didn’t see any cars outside his window”.

Whether this even happened is questionable. Regardless, we trust government regulators to operate in good faith 10x more than private sector corporations.

Post reply on HN