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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

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Re: "Lighten up"

#691

Post by Fred_Flintstone »

mtrimpe wrote: post #492
jQueryIsAwesome wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that you think this form of behavior is more natural to women than men is actually quite sexist. All gender generalizations are sexist? That doesn't make sense; there are generalizations that are true even if that population doesn't like those generalizations (ie: women are physically less capable than men) and in some situations it may be important to have them in mind. What could be sexist is to speak ou…

Thanks for the backup. People around here tend not to realize that sharing something like this leaves you feeling pretty darn vulnerable.

I agree with what you said and respect the vulnerable position you have put yourself in. No matter where you say what you just said it may be construed as sexist by some people.

There is some axis of reactionary behaviours, with "passive-aggressiveness / indirectness" on the left, and "meanness / directness" on the right, and in general women are further to the left and men are further to the right.

Anyway, I wrote a post based partly off the things you have written and hope that you do not disagree with anything I have wrote. I'd love to hear your feedback? You can read it here:

http://redd.it/r8bk5

Re: "Lighten up"

#692

Post by sp332 »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #660
chunkybacon wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rule is: some girls like it, some girls don't. You have to know what they will like before you open your mouth.

The rule is: don't assert your situational power. A woman alone or outnumbered among men is going to feel pressured. Comments you make won't be well received even if she is worried enough by the pressure to smile and hide her discomfort . She'll just curse your name to her friends after work. Contrast: if you're the only man in a room of women, and the boss is a woman, would you dare speak up with your "nice dress" t…

Yeah, why not? In a room full of men, the comment would be made to the other men, but for the benefit of that woman. It would be flippant and funny. In a room full of women, the comment would be more personal, and I would have to keep the tone extremely light because the more serious I am, the more vulnerable I am.

Re: "Lighten up"

#694

Post by davemel37 »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #583
mechanical_fish wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

> Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. That is only the second thing that came to my mind. The other "danger" is being the only guy to act like that, then looking like a desperate "white knight" to the brogrammer crowd. Which sucks, because these exist and can be terribly creep…

the more I think about this problem, and the solutions being offered, the more I think everyone is missing the point. I think riding in and saving the day is just as "sexist."

What the OP wants here is to be respected for who she is and her accomplishments as an individual, so that is the best solution. My guess is that most women accept this sexism as a part of life and have a way to handle it, but evey once in a while it just crushes them.

The healthiest and most productive solution is to "give them the tools" to feel better about themselves and ignore the sexists of the world, by letting them see that there are good people out there who will treat them with respect and appreciate not only their efforts and accomplishments, but also their sacrifice and struggle. It is obviously very easy for a a woman to fall into the "traditional secretary" role, if someone put the effort to overcome and rise above, that effort should be appreciated.

If the boss asking her to take notes is demeaning, why not ask her to help you overcome some difficult coding problem.

In most situations, it really just boil down to being a mensch.

Re: "Lighten up"

#695

Post by [deleted] »

ErrantX wrote: post #619
gurkendoktor wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. That is only the second thing that came to my mind. The other "danger" is being the only guy to act like that, then looking like a desperate "white knight" to the brogrammer crowd. Which sucks, because these exist and can be terribly creep…

You have to be careful how you do it as well. Because I offered to do a task like that (it wasn't note taking, I think it was making tea) saying something like [names changed] "Chris, I'm not sure why Amy is always asked to make the tea! I'll happily do it". Which I thought was politely volunteering whilst also publicly raising my bosses problematic behaviour - an educational experience. I got glowering dagger stares…

[deleted]

Re: "Lighten up"

#696

Post by xyzzyz »

m-photonic wrote: post #649
klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

>I have exact same problem with how I perceive woman and man having multiple sexual partners. "Good key opens many locks, but good lock is opened by only one key" and all that bullshit - I know that it's ridiculous to hold woman and men to different standard in this regard Without endorsing any specific views on female vs male promiscuity, I don't see what's so bad about seeing a distinction between them. The fact is…

"Without endorsing any specific views on intelligence of tall vs short people, I don't see what's so bad about seeing a distinction between them. The fact is, tall and short people are different from each other, and their intelligence are different phenomena."

You can substitute many other things in there, and it will make equally bad argument. 80 years ago one could similarly argue about black vs white people, and it wouldn't be considered wrong or racist back then.

It's just less obvious after years of cultural conditioning.

Re: "Lighten up"

#698

Post by ckpwong »

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #140

As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers'). This, more than the jokes and comments, is the meat of the problem. Inappropriate jokes can be much more easily addre…

The notetaking situation as you describe it (not necessarily the way Katie was treated) can probably be averted by politely declining, such as, "Can someone else take notes this time? I like to put more focus on this particular discussion." If it's happening even more frequently than, say, 50%, then perhaps something along the line of suggesting everyone taking turns (if it's a regular meeting).

At my previous workplace, it's usually the host who sends out meeting notes or action items if needed. Otherwise, the task falls into the hands of the project manager, if one is present in the meeting.

Re: "Lighten up"

#699

Post by morestuff »

nknight wrote: post #671
chunkybacon wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the downmodders are right in a "by the books" sense, but try to accuse someone of sexism when they say "men don't make good homekeepers" and see how far you get. Practically speaking, it doesn't work. Also I'll add that this weird feature seems only to exist for white people in Western countries.

I know several male "homekeepers" who would be very offended by that extremely sexist remark.

And yet, the US Census regards fathers as child care, not designated parents.

http://blogsallie.4cforchildren.org/2012/02/13/census-bureau...

Re: "Lighten up"

#700

Post by ckpwong »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #565
mechanical_fish wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

As a man, I've handled this by being the one to turn it into an obvious sexist thing by making a joke aloud "yeah, Sarah, boss says it's your turn to take notes again because, you know, you're the only girl at the table :P. Ha ha ha ha." Everyone laughs, boss realizes what he's doing, Sarah is off the hook.

Yes, your comment may get Sarah off the hook, but I'd probably feel even more offended by that comment than by the boss' request.

If she has the courage to display any disdain over your overtly sexism comment though, perhaps the boss would take (mental) note.

At the same time, the boss may not even be aware of the sexism in the initial request--he/she may rationalize the request/decision after-the-fact, even if it were made in a sexist light at a subconscious level. In that case, that comment may end up offending both the boss and Sarah.

(And yes, women in management sometimes are more sexist against female subordinates than male counterparts.)

If you follow up your comment with an apology and an offer to take notes, however, everyone will feel better.

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