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Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

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Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#691

Post by gunapologist99 »

tolmasky wrote: post #618
izacus wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't happen when Apple did it with Safari (and you all were quiet as a mouse as well, with HN actively defending Apple Safari monopoly with this feature enabled)... so why would NOW be any different?

I am not HN, you'll find no comment of mine defending that (despite, for the record, Apple's system being less bad than this one, while still bad). NOW would be different because, again, this system is worse than Apple's , and because Chrome has a larger influence on the web than Safari (on Desktop, on mobile its a foregone conclusion since you're not allowed a different engine other than Safari anyways, so the real…

> for the record, Apple's system being less bad than this one, while still bad

Apple's just more subtle than Google.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#692

Post by freedomben »

encody wrote: post #186

It's small, but here's a real actionable item that you can do to help: Put a gentle "Use Firefox" (or any other non-Chromium-based browser) message on your website. It doesn't have to be in-your-face, just something small. I've taken my own advice and added it to my own website: https://geeklaunch.io/ (It only appears on Chromium-based browsers.) We can slowly turn the tide, little by little.

I like this idea, but has Mozilla said anything about their position in all of this? I'm a Firefox user, but I haven't felt great about Mozilla in quite a while. I'd love to know they are on the right side of this issue before I start promoting them like this.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#694

Post by nequo »

solardev wrote: post #682
nequo wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between 0% and 5% is that at 0%, if you want an alternative, you have to write it yourself, but at 5%, the alternative exists. Mozilla is not dead. If you don’t like what Google is doing, don’t pretend that Firefox does not exist. Do something instead. File bug reports, send patches, donate to those who are working on Firefox and countering Google.

Frankly I trust Mozilla's governance even less than Google's. They took an amazing product (Phoenix) and mismanaged it into irrelevance. If there were a good browser run by a different nonprofit org, I would support that.

Even if you don't trust Mozilla, they cannot do what Google is already doing. Mozilla doesn't have nearly enough market power to force something like WEI down our throats.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#695

Post by toyg »

btown wrote: post #162

From the spec author, in 2022 [0]: > I decided to make this an app in the end. This is where my costs started wracking up. I had to pay for a second hand macbook pro to build an iOS app. Apple’s strategy with this is obvious, and it clearly works, but it still greatly upsets me that I couldn’t just build an app with my linux laptop. If I want the app to persist for longer than a month, and to make it easy for friends…

The guy seems to have deleted most of his social accounts. Clearly he values privacy for himself, just not for everyone else.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#696

Post by toyg »

Waterluvian wrote: post #258
btown wrote: post #162

From the spec author, in 2022 [0]: > I decided to make this an app in the end. This is where my costs started wracking up. I had to pay for a second hand macbook pro to build an iOS app. Apple’s strategy with this is obvious, and it clearly works, but it still greatly upsets me that I couldn’t just build an app with my linux laptop. If I want the app to persist for longer than a month, and to make it easy for friends…

My understanding is that Ben gets his paycheque from Google.

It's hard to get someone to understand if his salary depends on not understanding.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#697

Post by EvanAnderson »

helen___keller wrote: post #677
EvanAnderson wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole narrative about WEI "proving" you're a human is completely false (and I'd argue a ruse). It only proves you're using a sanctioned OS and browser binary. It does nothing to stop robots being wired-up to devices w/ emulated inputs. In fact, WEI will make it easier to use a robot w/ a sanctioned software stack since, hey, it's a "human" per WEI.

WEI proposal leaves open the functionality of the attester, so it’s neither correct to say this will prove requests are humans nor that it simply proves a sanctioned OS/browser. The attester will attest whatever they want. They can evolve to match the further degradation of user freedoms.

> The attester will attest whatever they want. They can evolve to match the further degradation of user freedoms.

Agreed. Eventually the attestor will be measuring “proof of life” with the camera, for example.

“Please drink verification can” isn’t too far down that road either.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#698

Post by freedomben »

AdamN wrote: post #133
fps_doug wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do, and I keep having those tiring conversations, but it's really hard to get the point across in layman's terms. I have enough friends in tech who stick with Chrome out of convenience instead of just falling back on it in case something actually doesn't work in Firefox. how do I convince tech illiterate people of doing this?

For the tech illiterate recommend Safari. For tech people, appeal to their privileged position and the importance of defending the web by choosing any other browser (or Safari). Both users can keep Chrome installed as a fallback - that will help with convincing too.

Didn't Apple implement this same type of thing in Safari a year or so ago?

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#699

Post by redavni »

ascendantlogic wrote: post #638
matkoniecz wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And Mozilla is long past dead. Mozilla is far from healthy but calling it dead is overstating things.

Mozilla is dead as a doornail. Google succeeded where Microsoft did not, they essentially control the entire web now.

San Francisco salaries and the removal of Brendan Eich is what happened to Mozilla not Google and Microsoft.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#700

Post by drewbug01 »

sspiff wrote: post #649

Publishing an implementation of a proposed web specification is how all web standards are created or evolve. The same thing happens with WebGPU, WASM, and many before them. Usually with a prefix (ms-, moz-, webkit-,...) and/or locked behind a config setting before standardization. What is different this time other than it being a feature that is considered user-hostile? That's not to say we shouldn't oppose this feat…

> That's not to say we shouldn't oppose this feature, I just wouldn't be up in arms about an implementation existing.

People aren’t up in arms about the process by which web standards become accepted; they are up in arms about this standard moving forward at all because of its dangerous implications for the web and it’s outright user-hostility.

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