Young people are flocking to astrology • Hacker News Board

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#691

Post by detourdog » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 2:14 PM UTC

retrac wrote: post #678

harimau777 wrote: post #575

I have a pet theory that things like astrology, tarot, the I Ching, Myers Briggs, etc. are valuable (and therefore stick around) not because they have a supernatural or scientific ability to make correct predictions, but because they provide a useful framework for discussing topics. So for example, even if tarot doesn't give you supernatural insight, the discussion it generates with the card reader may allow you to r…

The Shang of early China are a good example. The oracle bone divination was highly systematized. They would ask the ancestors questions written on bones and shells, with the supposed answers forming along the cracks through the writing when subjected to intense heat. This role was fundamental to the king's power and authority -- a common question was whether and how to perform human sacrifices. They were meticulous r…

Having a vehicle to ponder big questions is needed for development. Each step in development is a new context available for reconsideration. Decision making becomes dogmatic otherwise.

When all else fails one can always fall back to intuition.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#692

Post by andrewflnr » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 2:16 PM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #621

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #576

Increased interest in astrology has been noted before in societies with declining traditional religious belief and greater feelings of uncertainty. Whereas a Christian would leave his concerns about things out of his control with God, and a stoic might simply accept his powerlessness, the anxious remainder look for other ways of trying to cope. Astrology has a track record of filling this void with its fatalism, and…

“People like games that offer low-stakes predictions about their personality” has both more explanatory power and is much more parsimonious than the explanation you’ve presented. Unless we’re prepared to consider consuming Cosmopolitan an “occult practice” as well, of course.

"People like games that xyz" is a conclusion, not an explanation. Why do people like them?

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#693

Post by everybodyknows » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 2:16 PM UTC

YurgenJurgensen wrote: post #188

onecommentman wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1970s many straight guys were “into” (natal) astrology, as evidenced by the classic pickup line “Hey babe, what’s your sign?” Any less scientific than “Hey babe, what’s your Meyers-Briggs type?”? Astrology got me out of an intro to stats final. You could write a paper using stats in lieu of the final, if your grades were high enough. I got a list of DOB and declared majors for each UGs from the University, hyp…

If all your sample came from the same country (and to a lesser extent, hemisphere), what you're really measuring with "star sign" is "age upon entry into the school system".

That's good. Another physically plausible correlation would be effects of weather upon early development. Babies born in the springtime being likely to get more sensory stimulation during months of prime brain growth: sunshine, outdoor hours crawling around among the bugs and such.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#694

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 2:17 PM UTC

baremetal wrote: post #688

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And come on, we know holy texts are full of things which are clearly wrong, in exactly the same way astrology is. The temptation to gloss over them as ornamental bits is huge, but to believers they are doctrinal. I can't think of any precise statements that are clear enough to be proved true or false. Usually holy texts have vague enough language that it's very much a case of interpretation. e.g. The Genesis creati…

>The Genesis creation story states that God created the universe in 6 days, but any attempt to demonstrate that it is false will have believers declaring that a "day" is not a precise measurement of time. The Bible is rather clear that God doesn't measure time like humans do. "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." 2 Peter 3:…

The bible is a clear about a lot of things that are utter nonsense, I wouldn't use it as a guide for anything related to things like measurements of anything.

And a day is a day, no matter how you try to spin it after a couple of thousand years of peddling nonsense to try to make the gravytrain go a little farther.

This is no different than the Jehova's witnesses changing their 'due date' whenever it doesn't work.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#695

Post by ndsipa_pomu » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #687

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not clear on the meaning of 2 and how would it apply to something such as atomic decay? Who would be the "another" that causes an atom to decay?

See perhaps "Causality and radioactive decay": * https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2014/12/causality-and-radio...

Is it my imagination, or does Fesser always leap into an accusation of the poor reading skills of people who disagree with him?

Anyhow, I can't really find a decent answer in that blog - my understanding is that he hand-waves it away by declaring that it is beyond physics and thus can't be confirmed or denied by such. Not a satisfying answer to my mind and I consider that tower of logic to be on shaky ground.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#696

Post by baremetal » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 2:19 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #480

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of any religions that make any clear predictions, so they're not even wrong (as opposed to astrology which is clearly wrong). So-called punishments are typically enacted in some other realm (e.g. after-life, rebirth into a lower form etc) which leads to some experimental problems in verifying the claims. I disagree about your interpretation of burning of religious books - surely that's more to do with p…

Flag burning is a great example in fact: the outrage simply never reaches the levels it is with holy text burnings. Not to stone-the-tourists, burn-the-embassy levels of outrage: possibly (speculating here) because flag burning does not assault one's identity in a way similar to demonstrating the futility of one's beliefs. If we get to the punishments, things were clearly handed swiftly in the Old Testament. The Bibl…

>The Biblical concept of Hell as we know it (the place of eternal punishment) didn't emerge until the New Testament as it was in a way redundant.

The OT did have a concept of Hell. It is called "Sheol"[1].

"Therefore Sheol enlarges its throat, and opens wide its enormous jaws, and down go Zion’s nobles and masses, her revelers and carousers!"

Isaiah 5:14

"As drought and heat consume the melting snow, so Sheol steals those who have sinned. "

Job 24:19

I could go on.

[1] https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7585.htm

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#697

Post by jncfhnb » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 2:20 PM UTC

InitialLastName wrote: post #677

jncfhnb wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a good point but it’s not equal. Myers Briggs is nice a framework. You can just look at the axes of personality and use them to structure a claim about where you land. The test is not the important bit. I think many people have not considered the dimensions of personality that it proposes. Astrology not so much. You can’t describe yourself as a linear combination of different signs or at least, you’re not meant…

> Myers Briggs is nice a framework. My favorite thing about Meyers-Briggs is when people claim their classification is so rare that it only applies to 6% of people.

Well that’s just people bad at stats.

*because the claim is not noteworthy

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#698

Post by andrewflnr » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

seer wrote: post #164

nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

As the saying goes, “all models are wrong, some models are useful” While the astrology “model” is obviously wrong, it must have been useful to someone at sometime for it to have gained such a popularity. Like the “flat earth model” is actually extremely useful if you don’t intend (can’t) travel significant distances - gives you a coordinate system, maps and ways to predict where you’re going to be tomorrow if you tra…

The point of a "useful model" in that sense is that it makes actual predictions, not that it was fun or even illuminating to think about. Aether was not a "useful model" because thinking about it led to its own repudiation. Astrology fails this test.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#699

Post by baremetal » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #514

xvedejas wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In college a Christian friend readily gave "evidence" of predictions in the bible as reason why he believes that religion. I think a lot of religious people do think there are clear predictions. I wish I remembered his examples (which I found uninteresting at the time) — I think one was a prediction of an invasion of Tyre?

The problem with a lot of historical predictions is that they were too vague to be useful i.e. could someone armed with a bible have known enough about an invasion of Tyre to make a bet with someone before it happened? e.g. I bet they get invaded in the next two weeks. Predictions of that nature are usually just re-interpretations based on knowledge after the fact.

Israel was recreated in one day. As prophesied.

"Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children." Isaiah 66:8

On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. U.S. President Harry S. Truman recognized the new nation on the same day.[1]

[1] https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-isra...

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#700

Post by throw0101a » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #524

throw0101a wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not turn to Carrier if you wish to counter-argue Feser: > In an article at his blog, pop atheist writer Richard Carrier grandly claims to have “debunked!” (exclamation point in the original) Five Proofs of the Existence of God. It’s a bizarrely incompetent performance. To say that Carrier attacks straw men would be an insult to straw men, which usually bear at least a crude resemblance to the argument under c…

How about this: https://ontologicalinvestigations.blogspot.com/2017/12/five-...