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Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

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Re: Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

#691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been articulated, you just choose to ignore it.

ah yes, that classic proof, "I already proved it!" [with no citations, while entirely failing to respond to any clarifying questions] can be applied in all cases!

First you said articulated, not proof, so you're moving the goalposts to be argumentative and aren't discussing in good faith. Second, you seem to be under the impression that unless everyone caves to coercion 100% of the time, then it isn't coercion, which is obviously a fallacy. Just because someone doesn't pay when they are blackmailed doesn't mean they weren't blackmailed.

Both political parties threatened to rewrite section 230 on multiple occasions. This would effectively bankrupt most social media companies. The fact that you are unable or unwilling see this as coercion is your blind spot, not everyone else's.

Re: Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

#692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We now live in the most peaceful time in human history. And just to be clear, we're contrasting this time of unprecedented peace with entities that have killed in spasms of violence with no apparent public casus belli than "my book is better than your book and it told me to do so?" Spasms that, in one set of instances, led to the deaths of a significant fraction of the global population? “Estimates of the number of p…

> We now live in the most peaceful time in human history. I would say we live in the most widespread Uneasy Peace in human history. And unlike religious peace which had occasional conflicts, a break in the peace now would mean annihilation. Is general peace, risk of annihilation better than occasional petty wars without annihilation? > And just to be clear, we're contrasting this time of unprecedented peace with enti…

Before I begin, I believe that everyone has the right to believe and (if they choose to do so) worship and pray as they want.

The reason why I wrote the above language, quite explicitly, is because religions, in the long-term, do not agree with such co-existence. Eventually, there's a reversion to the mean, or a splintering that spreads fundamentalism and decries other groups.

    > I would say we live in the most widespread Uneasy Peace in human history. And unlike religious peace which had occasional conflicts, a break in the peace now would mean annihilation. Is general peace, risk of annihilation better than occasional petty wars without annihilation?
When was this religious peace? Here's a graph of human history, could you kindly tell me when you think this religious peace lies in this graph? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGL9VKKXkAAVhwB.jpg

As far as I can tell, this peace we experience is truly un-precedented in the original sense of the word, i.e. there is no prior precedent.

    > Well, considering that they murdered priests and pastors in their camps, were they really friendly to religion? Particularly Catholic Priests, who represented 94% of the clergy they executed.
They believed that they were the true chosen people of god and everyone else was less. Their persecution of jewish people was (partly, not completely) driven by the belief that they were the ones who killed god.

Expanding on this, with the following statement,

    > Let's not confuse Protestant fundamentalism motivated by political ends with religion in general.
That's the problem. Whose book and under what interpretation and rules?

You can't just say, "these events wouldn't occur under my doctrine. My religion is the only religion and the others aren't."

When you create rules by fiat, "X is Y because I/holy book/prophet said so." Then is it surprising that others will make rules by fiat as well? What makes their rules more valid than yours? You believe that you have god's mandate. Well, so do they. They're both equally absurd claims with equal validity to an outside observer.

The point of the enlightenment is to look towards something more concrete; ideals that have been honed via debate and examination of history. Ideals that are subject to change as we learn more. Ideals that are more real, because they become real in their execution.

You may say, well, that's religion as well, but I am not aware of any religion where things are subject to true debate (can you even question the existence of the deity?), or religious groups that are open to changes in their fundamental philosophies.

Re: Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

#693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been long established in case law that government requests for censorship are tantamount to coercion and threats. To wit, it matters not if the Giant makes a polite or directly threatening request of Jack. In either case, Jack is right to assume that he has no choice in the matter. And can not be expected to tell the Giant to "pound sand". Conversely, the Giant should not be able to claim that Jack had a choic…

I'd argue that the US doesn't have enough of a reputation for disappearing people or putting their business under a heat lamp if they don't willfully comply with police requests that are overbearing. Apple, Google, etc get away with denying a lot of data requests[0]. And despite being put on the stand for 2016 election interference, Jack, Elon, and Mark are doing just fine. 0: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency…

Is that why President Biden called for a federal investigation [0] into Musk's companies shortly after he bought Twitter and told the government censors to "pound sand?"

Keep in mind this was in response to a question from a Bloomberg "journalist" which basically laid out the premise that Musk might be a national security threat. Biden has been known to show up to press conferences with a "cheat sheet" listing which journalists to call for questions, and the verbatim text of the question that each will ask. [1]

[0] https://nypost.com/2022/11/09/biden-calls-for-federal-invest...

[1] https://www.allsides.com/news/2023-04-27-0330/politics-biden...

Re: Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

#694
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Him being a trump nominee makes me suspicious, but also sad that that is the effect and that papers need to list who nominated a judge. They don't, they just choose to do so. It's the same way pundits, authors, and broadcasters often get labeled "right-wing" or "conservative" while similarly left-wing ones don't get labeled. It's an editorial choice to call the reader's attention to it and imply relevance. Beyond t…

> They don't, they just choose to do so. It's the same way pundits, authors, and broadcasters often get labeled "right-wing" or "conservative" while similarly left-wing ones don't get labeled. Which is even weirder when we consider that being "right wing" is considered bad but "left wing" is not. When in reality during the 20th century, far left wing political organizations have been responsible for the deaths of 10'…

The left wing individuals responsible for the 10s of millions of deaths you're citing here sound more like Donald Trump in their rhetoric than any "leftist" rhetoric you'll find today in the USA. After all, it was Stalin who, like Trump, called the media the "enemy of the people"

  “Stalin originated the concept ‘enemy of the people’. This term automatically made it unnecessary that the ideological errors of a man be proven,” Khrushchev said in his secret address to the Communist party’s inner circle.

  “It made possible the use of the cruellest repression, against anyone who in any way disagreed with Stalin, against those who were only suspected of hostile intent, against those who had bad reputations.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/03/trump-enemy-...

That's how the right behaves today, which is why the right is dangerous. Communism vs. capitalism doesn't mean a thing if the person in charge is a deranged, power-hungry, narcissistic dictator.

Re: Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

#695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I invite you to have a conversation with my six year old child and then reflect upon the difference between power dynamics as they exist and as they are vocalised.

Your toddler doesn't represent the United States Government.

What impact does that have on the difference between power dynamics as they exist and as they’re vocalised?

Re: Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

#696
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and before Trump both Republicans and Democrats when picking their nominees would pick a candidate that leaned their way and that the the other side could agree was well qualified and experienced enough to do the job well even if they didn't like the candidates politics.

In October, the American Bar Association rated Barrett "well qualified" for the Supreme Court opening, its highest rating.[115] The ABA confines its evaluation to the qualities of "integrity, professional competence, and judicial temperament The ABA rated her as well qualified. I'm doing to defer to them. I do understand your point that she had never had a judgeship before her appeals appointment in 2017, of which sh…

I think looking back at the alacrity with which she was appointed, the speed at which Roe was subsequently overturned, not to mention the stated rationale of the POTUS at the time, we can all be confident that the true reason for her appointment wasn't her qualifications as a jurist.

Re: Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

#697

I wanted to point out several factual issues with this ruling, some of which I mentioned yesterday on another post. For starters, the judge severely misquotes an email: >However, various emails show Plaintiffs are likely to succeed on the merits through evidence that the motivation of the NIAID Defendants was a “take down” of protected free speech. Dr. Francis Collins, in an email to Dr. Fauci told Fauci there needed…

This new crop of politicians in robes seem to be worse than the rest. I’d expect this kind of malpractice from Fox News Channel, not the federal judiciary.

Politicking judges are less bad than judging politicians.

Re: Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

#698
post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why this needs to be said, but "you" in this context is conceptually an abstraction of the private citizen. Maybe @shadowgovt the individual never says a word that the establishment would disapprove of, but don't count on that always being the case, and certainly don't expect others to fall in line in that regard. Is it your opinion that the government should have such power - specifically to, without of…

I personally believe the government can certainly pass information on to private corporations and then the private corporations can then choose what to do. Whether the situation went past that is what this court case would be about, and nothing has been decided on that topic yet.

> the government can certainly pass information

As you acknowledge, that's not remotely the issue here.

Re: Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

#699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have enough channels to do that? They have to do it via veiled threat to a speech platform to delete users posts? How can anyone defend this behavior? Just because it's your guy doing it? If Trump was telling Twitter to delete posts that hurt his re-election chances would you feel this same way?

Unbelievable that you're being downvoted at all. The authoritarian minded have definitely increased substantially as this site has become more popular and drawn increasingly larger crowds. When it was dominated by those capable of logic and reasoning and having some knowledge of the world, authoritarianism would get smacked down hard and rightfully so.

I am sure you are just as illogical as other people - and it would be good for you to realize that!

Never did I say that I support governments. I was only asking what I thought (and was wrong about) was a positive provoking question.

Re: Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

#700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah yes, that classic proof, "I already proved it!" [with no citations, while entirely failing to respond to any clarifying questions] can be applied in all cases!

First you said articulated, not proof, so you're moving the goalposts to be argumentative and aren't discussing in good faith. Second, you seem to be under the impression that unless everyone caves to coercion 100% of the time, then it isn't coercion, which is obviously a fallacy. Just because someone doesn't pay when they are blackmailed doesn't mean they weren't blackmailed. Both political parties threatened to rew…

You are the one claiming there was a credible threat, so it's upon you to show it.

Empirically, Facebook's denials when it suited them suggests they did not feel any such threat. The fact that they sometimes agreed is not an affirmative indication of such a threat, as they could have easily done so on the merits of the requests.

The fact that the proposed action would require Biden to collude with the GOP congress to censor speech the GOP congress supports most heavily and would never censor, combined with the knowledge of reality that such collusion would never happen, suggests that the threat could not exist even theoretically.

So, now's your chance to put forward an alternative case for there being a credible threat, rather than just an angry dude impotently swearing at social media with no actual power to repeal section 230 short of said implausible collusion. After all, Biden political appointee or not, he and I have exactly the same power to convince the GOP to censor the speech in question: None. Are my angry requests to Facebook similarly plausibly "threatening"? Obviously not.

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