Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why I Left Rust

jntrnr.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

691–700 of 880 posts

Re: Why I Left Rust

#691

Post by Georgelemental »

kortex wrote: post #626
Georgelemental wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Colored" is now considered offensive by most, so why isn't "person of color" also viewed the same way? Both terms describe the same opressive system of nonsense racial hierarchy, after all.

It's complex but the reductionist explanation is that it is in part due to the euphemism treadmill, and in part etymological origin. "Colored" comes from the era of segregation, while "people of color" comes after. But don't get too comfortable, as "people of color" will probably phase out soon as well. My money is first on "BIPOC" (as an initialism, usually sounding out the letters), giving way to "bipoc" (as an acr…

> But afaik, no one has proffered an adequate word to describe "folks that have too much melanin to be considered white".

Such a word is not necessary or desirable, because the categorization system it supports is not meaningful or useful.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#692

Post by shash »

Animats wrote: post #684
junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

> They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. Maybe that really is the problem. Too much reflection leads to clever, but hard to debug hacks. Look what happened with C++ templates and, further back, LISP macros. That way lies code that's unusually hard to read and maintain. Rust probably shouldn't go that way. Do you want to…

C++ templates are not reflection; either compile time or runtime. There is a form of reflection, but that's RTTI, which is a totally different ballgame.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#693

Post by bobsmooth »

vector_spaces wrote: post #350
pdimitar wrote: post #336

I'll obviously not stop using Rust over this -- and I think 99.99% of the people using Rust for work will not stop using it either -- but this looks like a case where the underlying true issue (sidestepping a democratic process) was very quickly forgotten and people started arguing over the expressions of the problem using dramatic and exaggerated language, which just makes things worse because it makes other people…

It's unlikely there is anyone in a position of authority in Rust consciously and nefariously excluding black folks and other people of color, but there doesn't need to be. It's a self-reinforcing problem that requires conscious effort to address. I'm a (nonblack) minority, and I tend to actively avoid participation in groups where I know I'm not likely to be understood in important ways. It can be pretty fucking exha…

You blame others for your own anxieties that stop you from participating?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#694

Post by nemo44x »

ericyd wrote: post #408
chillbill wrote: post #79

I haven't seen anyone bring this up, so I will. I read through the original blog post from JeanHeyd[1] and in no way do they mention anything related to being a person of color, why then does JT associate it with that? I have no idea about the inner workings of the rust leadership team and who they are even, but from the timeline described and from the original post, there's nothing the could be related to that. Jean…

> "a person of color" (as if white is not a color, but whatever) You might want to look into the historical basis for this term before you make snarky comments about it. It comes across as dismissive. My understanding is the term "person of color" evolved from "colored" (which originally just meant black (in America at least)) and now encompasses non-white people.

“Person of color” can be found in legal documents going back to the early 1800’s. There’s no “evolution” here. It’s all for political purposes. “Colored people” became “black ”became “African Americans” became “Black” (capital B). “People of color” is more broad and used to form a progressive coalition against “whiteness”, or rather the Western European tradition. In fact you could argue PoC doesn’t include Blacks as BIPOC is the fresh term to convince non-white people and so-called “white allies” to organize together so as to obtain power against the white oppressors.

Yes, when you examine the history here it appears neurotic, paranoid, and divisive. But I’m sure a few people have been able to acquire a slice of power from exploiting it.

The rest of us will just continue to politely smile and nod and then roll our eyes and smirk as we turn away.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#695

Post by dahart »

bybybyby wrote: post #234
junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

[flagged]

Technical opinions aren’t something we’re born with, they’re not intrinsic and uncontrollable properties of a person, and technical opinions haven’t historically been subject to widespread discrimination or hate crimes or even social imbalance in terms of income, right? The protections we have for race and gender aren’t there to avoid discomfort or to avoid conflict, they’re there to avoid harmful discrimination and to reinforce the civil rights of all citizens.

The argument that opinion should be equally protected, or that conversely race and gender should not be protected seems very surprising coming from a gay black trans person, which makes me assume I probably don’t understand what you mean. I’m curious to hear why you say the sensitivity to race and gender is artificial and irrational, given the history of physical atrocities that have occurred.

All that said, this particular case isn’t about protected categories at all, is it? The issue was not the existence of a dissenting opinion, the issue was that it was handled unilaterally without consensus, against the stated mores and procedures of the organization. They had a codified process for “protecting” dissenting opinions, and someone ignored and broke that process. This isn’t to be confused or conflated with US (or any other country’s) labor law’s notion of a “protected class”, we’re talking about two completely different kinds of protection.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#696

Post by clcaev »

chrsig wrote: post #526
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main issue is that the latter term is homogenizing: By that logic, white would be homgenizing as well, or? Someone from Prague has little in common with a person from Massachusetts or St. Petersburg.

I'd look towards stratified sampling to think more formally around the issue. POC is homogonizing because it's reducing the space from N strata to 2: white and non-white, blending n-1 strata. Per wikipedia: > Stratification is the process of dividing members of the population into homogeneous subgroups before sampling. The strata should define a partition of the population. That is, it should be collectively exhausti…

Moreover, who is white or non-white is political: currently a certain blood quantum is necessary for being American Indian; yet, in recent history under the one drop rule, for African Americans it was the inverse. The difference is material, as former was entitled to a say in land on a reservation, while the latter did not.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#697

Post by drxzcl »

jasmer wrote: post #644
drxzcl wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what I said.

"makes you look (see, optics again) either incredibly naïve or covering for some pretty bad behaviour." It is point blank what you said, it's plainly ridiculous that you would deny what is right there as though we're misinterpreting it, this is repulsive gaslighting.

The post is about optics. Read again what I wrote.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#698

Post by Animats »

shash wrote: post #692
Animats wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. Maybe that really is the problem. Too much reflection leads to clever, but hard to debug hacks. Look what happened with C++ templates and, further back, LISP macros. That way lies code that's unusually hard to read and maintain. Rust probably shouldn't go that way. Do you want to…

C++ templates are not reflection; either compile time or runtime. There is a form of reflection, but that's RTTI, which is a totally different ballgame.

True, but both come under the heading of adding a level of indirection at compile time. It's a tough language decision on how far to go in that direction. Go, pre-template, was minimalist on this. C++ probably went too far. Where to stop is a good question.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#699

Post by fwungy »

quotemstr wrote: post #396
GuB-42 wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the language itself looks fine, I find the community a bit off-putting. First the thing with the code of conduct and all that, that I think distracts from the technical questions. It is important to be inclusive, as not to exclude people who could make valuable contributions, but if it becomes a topic of argument, then it becomes counter-productive. The second is the "rewrite it in Rust" crowd. I mean, no langu…

> While the language itself looks fine, I find the community a bit off-putting I have wondered now and then about how the Rust community culture might have damaged the language. In particular, I've said for many years that Rust botched error handling by eschewing exceptions yet including panics anyway, leading to a doubling of the error handling infrastructure (you pay for both error objects and stack unwinding suppo…

As someone learning the language on production code I must agree that the error handling of Rust is terrible. Exceptions have never been a struggle point for me with other languages, but Rust error handling has literally given me headaches.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#700

Post by mhd »

oytis wrote: post #277
mhd wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ruby's Matz counts as a BFDL, does he? Because there was plenty of drama in that area...

Like what? It might I am not that interested in the language or HN is not that interested in the language, but I can't remember anything.

There even used to be a rubydramas.com site, if I remember correctly (parked domain right now).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4801226

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4487963

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28712821

It's been a while since the last big drama, but then again, it's also been a while since Ruby was that popular.

Post reply on HN