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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#691

Post by 00F_ »

alluro2 wrote: post #324

I generally root for Tesla as a former underdog who lit the fire under the asses of stagnating manufacturers, but, seeing videos of FSD in action, I'm fully on the side of people who think that calling it FSD should be considered fraud. Given how much time and data they had so far, and the state it's in, it really makes news like Zoox getting a testing permit for public roads, without any manual controls in the vehic…

what videos are you talking about? when i watch recent FSD videos (there have been regressions recently) on youtube the car generally drives itself. if you showed those videos to someone in the 90s they would without hesitation remark "that car drives itself!" there is zero ambiguity about this. nobody said that a self driving car could never make mistakes. the 90s person would definitely notice those mistakes but would come to the conclusion that we had pretty much done it and that we are going to have fully reliable self driving cars shortly. fsd is the largest experiment of its kind, its one of the coolest software projects of all time. how hackernews users are blind to that is beyond me.

there are hundreds of videos that directly contradict your comment. the funny thing is that on reddit and on hackernews as well as all mainstream news outlets, i have never, not even once, seen one of these videos posted or even linked to or even referred to. its like they dont exist despite the fact that there are hundreds of them just a click away.

you can say that we shouldnt be experimenting on the roads. thats a matter of opinion. but to say that fsd isnt the most advanced and capable system available, to say that its a fraud, to say that its failed is all objectively false. just look at where they started and look at one of the latest videos.

and in what may be a world first, i will link to a video here on hackernews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHadhx3c840&ab_channel=AIDRI...

the same guy, who drives FSD every day, is deeply involved in reporting bugs and publishes videos about FSD. by any metric that matters, his opinion is worth more than yours or anyone else on hackernews or reddit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvvhmc837Tw&ab_channel=AIDRI...

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#692

Post by ajross »

sidibe wrote: post #666
Xylakant wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This data does not show what it pretends to show. The underlying statistics are heavily skewed in favor of Tesla by various factors: * Autopilot can only be enabled in good conditions and relies on human drivers in all other, to the point of handing over to a human when it gets confused. Yet, they compare to all miles driven in all conditions. * Teslas are comparatively new cars that have - as they proudly point out…

All very true, by far the biggest factor is the first bullet. Autopilot is enabled exactly when the driver thinks it is very safe and easy driving. If we are comparing miles without an accident it shouldn't be compared to all miles, it's much more like all miles with cruise control activated, data which Tesla doesn't have and probably can't get, but I don't think they'd want to trumpet it either. It should be blindin…

> when you see problems every couple miles and the data is saying is saying it's way safer than a human, you are doing something wrong with or using irrelevant data.

That's right, you are doing something wrong. It's a supervised system. There's a driver in the loop, and yes: the combination is safer.

You're engaging with another favorite trope of Tesla argumentation: pretending that a system that isn't actually deployed as fully autonomous actually is. Safety is about deployed systems as they exist in the real world. Your point is that in a alternate universe where Teslas all ran around without drivers, they might be less safe. And... OK! That's probably true. But that's not a response to "Teslas are safe", is it?

They're safe. Just admit that, and then engage in good faith argument about what needs to change before they can deploy new modes like full autonomy. Lots of us would love to have that discussion and provide detailed experience of our own, but we can't because you people constantly want to ban the cars instead of discuss them.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#693

Post by rootusrootus »

93po wrote: post #593
dylan604 wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and speed of pushing stuff to customers (on the order of days) well, if you don't get the software pushed to the QA team (the customers), how else are they going to get it tested?

can we please stop with this disinformation? the customers are not the QA team.

Even AP is is "autosteer (beta)" so I sure do feel like part of their QA team. And it drives like a slightly inebriated human.

I do have high hopes that the work they've done on the FSD stack will make for a significant improvement to basic AP whenever they get merged (assuming it ever happens; it has been talked about for years). That'd be nice.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#694

Post by hex4def6 »

outworlder wrote: post #642
dmix wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The industry needs to come up with a new related term like "Software Recall" Recalling the hardware is a drastically more difficult request to impose on customers and financially/logistically for the car maker. That's a disporportate response just to highlight importance of an OTA update.

> Recalling the hardware is a drastically more difficult request to impose on customers and financially/logistically for the car maker. And the distinction matters to consumers because...? A component is faulty. It needs to be fixed. Whether or not you have to drive to a dealership, if it's OTA, if someone at a dealership needs to plug a specialized device to your car's OBD port, or the car is unfixable and needs to…

If you had to send in your cellphone each time there was an android update vs all IOS updates being OTA, I think you would see the distinction as a consumer.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#695

Post by Daz1 »

freejazz wrote: post #435
xdavidliu wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One can kill people the other not. No, that's not correct. Whether it can kill people or not is orthogonal to whether it's a true physical recall of the car or a software update.

> "true physical recall" ah, a made up term in order to justify your point. how convenient.

No we're talking about making terms actually fit their definition, which is generally helpful.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#696

Post by rootusrootus »

w0mbat wrote: post #375

An automatic software update is not a recall.

So say the Tesla fans, because they don't like the optics. But in the real world, there are legal definitions, and recall is exactly the right term for what is happening.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#697

Post by rootusrootus »

sixQuarks wrote: post #225
swyx wrote: post #61

is this the largest car recall in history? holy crap edit: looks like no.. the largest was 578607 cars... also by Tesla lol

Where do you anti-Tesla folks get your information? Just wow

Be nice. You fanboys aren't exactly batting a thousand with your points in this discussion either.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#698

Post by ninkendo »

rootusrootus wrote: post #688
SomaticPirate wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US passenger rail is unsafe. We have no way near the level of sophistication of European passenger rail transport. We have a significantly higher number of derailments. Even the worst European rail is more safe than US rail.

Europe has more railroad deaths than the US. Try again.

Adjust that for person-kilometers traveled and try again.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#699

Post by rootusrootus »

kortex wrote: post #455
MockObject wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it useful, if it requires such attention?

I have bog standard subaru EyeSight lane assist and dynamic cruise. It's quite nice, even though you are still "driving" and ready to take control. It reduces mental CPU by 50-80% (driving for me is practically like walking to begin with, largely subconscious). It's great in stop-and-go and long highway stretches.

In my experience there is a pretty strong correlation between driving style and whether AP lowers your stress or increases it. If you are a very defensive driver, AP will frequently raise your blood pressure. YMMV, everyone has a different approach to driving.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#700

Post by Beaver117 »

orthecreedence wrote: post #444
panick21_ wrote: post #410

I wish all the ink spilled on controversy over Tesla would instead be spilled on doing basic safety improvement to the road system that are cheap and proven to save many lives. Lets be real here, automated driving or not, having actually save roads helps prevent death and harm in many cases. The hyper focus on high tech software by all the agencies engaged in 'automotive security' is totally wrongly focused. What the…

If we're actually serious about this, we should get rid of roads altogether and replace them with rail tracks. That solves 95% of the automation problem anyway.

You're living in a fantasy. Name one country that has done that.
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