Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#691

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 9:58 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #172

cloudier wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s because focusing on the pipeline problem focuses on the parts of hiring that a company doesn’t have control over. Those decisions often happen in high school and tech companies don’t have direct influence in these decisions. Instead, companies are better off focusing on making the later parts of the pipeline less leaky. Minorities tend to leave tech at a higher rate than average due to factors the compan…

I generally agree. However, they should be addressing both. They should have outreach programs in high schools, partner with schools to offer intro to coding, or even help sponsor some students for after school coding classes. Sure, these won't necessarily convert these individuals into employees. But it would be part of being a good corporate citizen even if those students end up going to other companies. So there a…

> They should have outreach programs in high schools, partner with schools to offer intro to coding, or even help sponsor some students for after school coding classes.

Here's the thing: by the time students reach high school, a lot of weeding out has already happened. I recall such a program where where they had something like 7% black students. All but one were children of wealthy Nigerian immigrants. The rest of the class was actually more Asian and White than the district.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#692

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 10:03 PM UTC

throwaway35934 wrote: post #321

michaelt wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen quite a few people angrily push back on statements like 'pipeline problem' and I don't understand why. Well, some people think when a company says "pipeline problem" it's a PR-vetted way to announce they ain't going to do shit. Whether you think that's true probably depends on how cynical you are.

I mean, what are they supposed to do? To take one obvious example: there's massive under-performance of black men (vs. any other group) at every stage of the educational ladder up to the tertiary level. There simply aren't enough qualified candidates for engineering jobs for firms to be representative of the relative populations at a national level. 36% of white men have at least a bachelors degree; only 19% of black…

The solution to this seems to be dumbing down the curriculum so that more kids "succeed". With things like "anti-racist math" [0] or "equitable math" [1]

[0] https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...

[1] https://reason.com/2021/05/04/california-math-framework-woke...

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#693

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 10:04 PM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #588

nullc wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's illegal. It's also at least somewhat common now. It's easier to leave a company for another, probably better paying, job elsewhere than it is to bring a lawsuit.

Also if you bring a lawsuit, you'll pretty much be blacklisted from any company doing DEI, which is everyone that can pay well.

This reads like high school bullying.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#694

Post by DrThunder » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 10:04 PM UTC

kodah wrote: post #602

DrThunder wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused... are you endorsing acting this way or against it? Kinda seems like you're justifying the current action of "woke" people by discussing past injustices? Isn't the whole idea of the "woke" DEI initiative to fix injustices in our society?

I think they're just saying this occurrence isn't unique and it doesn't look like they approve of it. Many of us identify with our own struggles in deep ways. If you create an opportunity for people to organize around those struggles then people will, because as was said, there is power there. That power is in representation. The problem is generally in the silo'ing of representation. This is, imo, what things like i…

Ok, and my point is that doing the exact same thing as those people did in the past isn't doing better. You don't fix oppression by moving that oppression to a new group.

Simply pointing out that victimhood has always existed serves no purpose at all in response to my original comment.

"This is, imo, what things like intersectionality begin to address."

How? All intersectionality does is create a competition for the most oppressed. You will never be enough of a victim. Nothing good comes of a society that focuses specifically on how oppressed they are and vies for the most oppressed group or person.

"We have an entire country now that was founded based on legitimate religious persecution"

Name a country where this hasn't happened. There are many where this is still happening and to a further extent than anything in the US.

Ironically, you're right in weird roundabout way that I do not think you fully comprehend. EVERYONE has been a victim of some sort so it's irrelevant and we shouldn't spend one iota more of our short lives trying to discern who the highest victims of our society are. What a waste and it does nothing to improve the supposed oppressed.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#695

Post by ModernMech » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 10:04 PM UTC

Zvez wrote: post #248

I knew a _very_ talented female software developer. And she was radically against any benefits based on her being female. For example she actively tried to avoid female discounts some conferences offered. It seems that people who drive DEI don't have real connection with people they are trying to 'protect'.

You cannot generalize an anecdote about a single person you know to draw conclusions about “people who drive DEI”. By your own admission this person had a radical position. How do you know other women appreciate these benefits?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#696

Post by spoiler » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 10:10 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #382

spoiler wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience is different, too. I've never experienced these racist/sexists IRC communities in the past either. Sure, there'd be the occasional asshole like everywhere else online, but they'd get warned (and banned eventually). Why is your comment so passive aggressive, though? While the counter claim hasn't presented any proof, the same holds true for the original claim. You seem to be only thinking critically of t…

just dismissing someone else's claims out of hand because they don't fit your personal experience--while not on the same level of negative as making actual racists posts--it's not helpful to say the least. when someone makes posts of their personal experience, the follow up posts that claim "my experience is different" proves what? are you honestly suggesting you're having a better experience? that's great for you. a…

I can't tell if your questions are genuine or not, since they seem passive aggressive. But I'll humour you:

They made a blanket statement about how all of IRC is a racists/sexists shithole. They obviously have some unresolved resentment, and I am not denying it seems from a bad experience; certainly wouldn't from good ones.

My comment wasn't meant to make them feel bad (maybe that's something you indulge in, given your comment etiquette).

It was meant to offer a different perspective—of someone who was a part of some of those large communities. And I was involved in a lot of technical ones on Freenode around 2000s. Those communities put a lot of effort into inclusivity (and was an operator in some) and generally making everyone feel welcomed.

So it feels a bit like a spit in the face to see someone going around talking about technical IRC channels being Xist.

I'm not sure when they added the EDIT to their original post, but the hypocrisy added another layer of annoyance, trying to invalidate any comment speaking about their experience and writing off authors as "omnipotent IRC Gods" when nobody here but them is talking blanket statement bullshit.

Edit: I'm not saying there's weren't racist/homophonic/whatever communities on IRC. I know a lot of shitty fandom channels I joined and promptly left to find better ones. So yes they were out there.

Edit 2: Also, I think I took their comment too personally, given I was there and I know how much effort was put into making it feel welcoming for everyone.

Also, I find it ludicrous you're trying to tell me off for commenting online—whilst you yourself are commenting online—and claiming my experiences don't matter, but another person's do, all in an attempt paint me as doing the same lol. But anyway, I digress.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#697

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 10:13 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #667

rirze wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing minorities lack is a proper value system. There are multiple immigrant groups that start from nothing and achieve upper middle-class status in a generation's time. Once we realize, as a society, that what minorities really need is internal support to reform their cultural systems, only then will minorities will empower themselves to do better.

There are multiple immigrant groups that start from nothing and achieve upper middle-class status in a generation's time. Irish, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Koreans... In Martin Luther King's day, the line was that all that was needed was equality of opportunity.

> In Martin Luther King's day, the line was that all that was needed was equality of opportunity.

If you actually read and/or listen to King's speeches and writings, rather than just passively consume the propaganda image constructed by exactly the forces King railed against, you would know that it wasn't, at least not the way you seem to be thinking. King explicitly saw as necessary radical redistribution to acheive much greater equality of material condition (see, e.g., the “Three Evils” speech); he did not buy into the idea that material conditions that are the outcome of systems of distribution of scarce resources could be cleanly severed from “opportunity”, such that you could have even rough equality of the latter with gross inequality of the former.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#698

Post by DrThunder » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 10:13 PM UTC

ejstronge wrote: post #598

DrThunder wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the way normal anti-racism was up until recently. It's how MLK wanted it to be and it's pretty much how the US was treating it up until the last decade. Somehow we've switched in the last few years to the point where skin color and/or specific race is the MOST important attribute someone has. Diversity based on skin color is absolutely asinine. You can have a multitude of poc in one room but if their…

From a very sincere position, can you link to your sources for 'how MLK wanted it to be' and 'how the US was treating' DEI? Unless we were all in the same positions within our careers since the time of MLK to now (and I'll also ignore some other confounders, like the fact that many black Americans could not easily attend college in the time of MLK), I wonder whether a recency bias may explain the differences you are…

A link to sources? Really? Come on man, you've got to do a little work yourself here.

All you need to do is read what DEI is striving to do and listen to MLK's "I have a dream" speech when he specifically states he doesn't want a society where we judge the character of people on skin color but instead merit. This is something you should have learned in elementary school if you're an American. Are you trying to claim this isn't the case?

Explain to me how making everything equitable and inclusive for specific class oppressed poc isn't basing things on skin color vs. merit? This is a logical test, not one that needs sources.

Here's another test for you - explain how you make everyone equitable without lowering the higher achievers in society down to the average? Do you think it's possible to make under-achievers the same intelligence, physical capability as higher-achieving people?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#699

Post by tootie » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 10:18 PM UTC

throw_m239339 wrote: post #629

tootie wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That infers the baseline is equality. The reality is that hiring without explicit guidelines will bias against POC. DEI is about counteracting unconscious (or conscious) bias.

> That infers the baseline is equality. The reality is that hiring without explicit guidelines will bias against POC. DEI is about counteracting unconscious (or conscious) bias. No, DEI is about replacing one bias with another in order to make a bunch of white people feel better about themselves. DEI doesn't consider Indians or South Asian looking people "People of color", because there are "too many of them in tech…

I don't think any of that is true or at least I've never observed it. It's also entirely possible for a DEI program to be run incompetently.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#700

Post by DrThunder » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 10:20 PM UTC

Firmwarrior wrote: post #687

DrThunder wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't "earn" anything if it was due to skin color and that's the point. I've gotten plenty of breaks in my life but I'm aware of what is earned and what isn't. It's one thing to be ok with the fact you got in but you need the awareness to understand the negatives of a system that gives you chances due to an innate characteristic you have no control over. The irony here is that if we all just accept the line of t…

Man, it's really weird to find myself on the SJW side of this argument for once. I'm usually the token brown guy in Libertarian circles. Despite what you might've read on Tumblr or Fox News, I'm not planning to oppress anyone or commit white genocide. When I'm doing interviews or looking at resumes, I'll give an extra moment of consideration to anyone born in the USA who seems to have pulled him/herself up by their b…

You're strawmanning a lot of what I said.

My comment is just about what it leads to if we have a society that bases their hiring on specific skin colors. It seems like you're failing to differentiate between exactly what you're personally doing and the society wide affect of sitting back and accepting race based hiring.