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New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

theautopian.com

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Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#691

Post by paledot »

echelon wrote: post #682
paledot wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This came up a lot in my criminology program in university. Criminologists (especially students) spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about how to kill people and get away with it. General consensus is with a car. The crazy part is that whether or not you knew the person you ran over in your car can factor heavily into charges and sentencing.

> The crazy part is that whether or not you knew the person you ran over in your car can factor heavily into charges and sentencing. Knowing the person leads one to question whether or not there was motive.

Right, but if I walk out my front door and shoot the first person I see, I'm not going to dodge prison time because I didn't know the person. Someone is still dead.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#692

Post by throwaway894345 »

magicalist wrote: post #607
throwaway894345 wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, but do those people hold the same attitude about punishing violent criminals? Seems like there’s a lot of overlap between the “we shouldn’t punish violent offenders” and the “reckless drivers should be punished” people, but maybe I’m misreading the situation.

Yes, there's still a categorical difference between "there should be some consequences for recklessly killing someone" and "jailing people forever is the only right response to a violent crime".

So you agree that there is some degree of punishment that is acceptable for violent criminals? And I don’t think any serious person thinks jailing forever is the only right response to violent crime; the much more defensible position is “jailing until they are rehabilitated”, but this isn’t about punishment, it’s about protecting society. As it happens, rehabilitating prisoners is extremely hard and expensive, so sometimes we have long sentences and other times we let violent offenders out to further victimize their communities.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#693

Post by ajross »

osigurdson wrote: post #676
ajross wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It literally drives me around every day. Seems pretty good for a product that is "not available".

If it is ever necessary to take over then it is largely pointless. The only value is helping us get to the point where you can chill in the back seat.

Don't you feel the goalposts moving here? You went from "Humans never make mistakes like FSD does" to "FSD doesn't work yet" to "FSD works, but I don't think it has value yet". And you got called out on all of those and shifted.

Maybe you could agree to settle on: FSD works pretty well, seems not to be unsafe vs. human drivers, but isn't finished, and is improving rapidly? Might have saved us all some time.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#694

Post by denimnerd42 »

mandevil wrote: post #211
twelve40 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the worst parts of road trips this, so much > how you were really able to use cruise to follow another car at all before? not op, but you probably just don't, you disengage, cuss out loud and follow them manually until they come to a decision to stop hogging the lane. PS that's also why I hate the newer-style blocked-off HOV lanes here in sfbay, which seem to be a total trap and a magnet for idiots who drive…

There is a reason that blocked-off HOV lanes are used: research has shown that slugging[1] will form spontaneously- and achieve the goal of actually reducing total number of car trips- it seems to need a bunch of things[2], and one of them is the HOV lanes be blocked off rather than easily accessible. Barrier separation discourages cheating, which in turn rewards drivers who carry slugs rather than just cheat, and re…

Dallas has these blocked off lanes using essentially plastic bollards. I'm sure they've wasted more time and money via the crashes they produce from people darting between them and the unequal speeds on hov vs other lanes than any carpooling may have saved. I'm not saying that all blocked off lanes are bad but the implementation on US-75 in Dallas has been a horrible mistake.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#695

Post by wpietri »

abruzzi wrote: post #149
wpietri wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not getting why you think you need to override the cruise control. I had that concern when starting out with ACC, but I set its follow distance to something generous enough that it would trigger a speed change before I got anxious about it failing to trigger the change. That let me learn to trust it. Although now that I think about it, I was using the Subaru ACC, so the dash has a visible indicator if it's tracki…

For me I think the issue is trust. Its not much different from what I feel sitting in the passenger seat of a car when anyone else is driving. I don't trust their driving so if it gets slightly trafficed, I start freaking out because I don't trust the driver. I also don't trust the ACC on my Subaru in more dense conditions so when it get busy and I start approaching the rear of another vehicle, I go into a mode where…

Got it. I definitely remember having these feelings. If you find them problematic you might, like me, benefit from talking with health professionals about anxiety. Feel free to email me if you'd like to discuss it further.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#696

Post by cranekam »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #605
jackmott wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Tesla, when using just cruise control it has slammed the brakes: because of shadows that confused it because of concern about cars crossing the intersection ahead where there is only the need to gently slow because of a car crossing an intersection ahead that has already crossed! because of a steep bridge that confused it we can’t use cruise control in the car basically, we decided it is too dangerous at wor…

The worst part of phantom braking is not just the need for a sudden human intervention. It’s that the required human intervention is extremely non-intuitive. Intuitively when a car suddenly slows down it feels like the right response is to press on the accelerator: however in my experience this puts you in an unstable regime where you are “fighting” with the car. That is, autopilot continues to try to stop but tempor…

> Counterintuitively, the “correct” way to deal with phantom braking is to avoid the accelerator entirely and instead dive right for the brake pedal: this instantly disengages cruise control. But this is not an intuitive response, you have to learn it the hard way.

It is absurd that Tesla is allowed to sell cars that have this problem. Why isn't the NTSB (or whoever) insisting this is fixed and/or removing these cars from the road? They're unsafe. (I had a Tesla; glad I don't now)

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#697

Post by antoineMoPa »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #619
antoineMoPa wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a map of the rail network in North America (just to confirm that it does not exist /s) https://www.arcgis.com/apps/mapviewer/index.html?webmap=96ec...

clearly rails exist. I highly doubt you, or anyone, believes that rails reach the number of destinations that roads do. Yes you could argue to move more by rail for most destinations, and last mile it by truck. But with that change I still think we're running into contention for that left lane ...

I agree that the rail network is really not sufficient in North America, but it's worth investing more in extending this network.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#698

Post by moduspol »

watwut wrote: post #685
moduspol wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dont just start with assumption "self driving is currently safer" and then go on blame people for not trusting it. My claim doesn't depend on that assumption. My claim depends on it being the case someday. If the US tightens regulations on ADAS today, and that results in the day self-driving cars fully replace human-driven ones being 11 years away instead of 10, it has been delayed one year, at a cost of up to 1.35…

Delaying self driving cars does not come at the cost of human lives, if those cars are not safer then human driver. If they are less safe with current tech, delaying then saves lives. If they tighten regulation, they are saving lives. Also, mandating companies to put in more testing would force companies to test. Without that, they are economically motivated to make big claims, but to to not invest into reproducible…

The current tech is irrelevant. It is not safer than a human driver, but that's not relevant.

If regulation delays the day in the future that it is safer than human drivers and that human drivers are replaced, then it is costing lives. And it would.

The only way it wouldn't is if the regulation saves more lives in the meantime than would have been saved by having self-driving cars ubiquitous sooner, but that's tough to argue when we're already losing 3,700 per day.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#699

Post by sangnoir »

throwaway892238 wrote: post #681
sangnoir wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm still waiting for autonomous-only lanes. Lanes are really expensive, it's unreasobable to have an autonomous-only lane, so a shared lane is base. I propose that vehicles in autonomous node be restricted to the slow(est) lane, where it's safer to come to a sudden stop, and the driver, manufacturer and insurer have to contend with the probability of being flattened by an 18-wheeler.

There's dedicated lanes on highways all over the country. They exist solely to let people to pay extra to avoid traffic. If that's reasonable, I think it's also reasonable to make them autonomous.

Paying extra[0] helps build and maintain the expensive roads - had I mentioned roads are very expensive? Why should autonomous vehicle be rewarded? To be very clear, I think they ought to be 'punished' due to the risks they present to others (read the fine article).

0. We also reward high-occupancy for reducing traffic, and no-/low-emission vehicles for reducing pollution, both results have clear public benefits.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#700

Post by soraminazuki »

sfmike wrote: post #683
soraminazuki wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible to move around Tokyo without cars to some extent, but there are still far more roads than there are railways. It’s nowhere near being a car-free zone, and many people who don’t drive would still need buses or taxis to get to the train station.

Possible? Millions of people daily do this in Tokyo I'd say it's more then a possibility. Have always been able to get to Tokyo station or Shinagawa/Shinjukku via a JR rail or local subway, so definitely not needed either. Shaving 10 minutes via taxi yes that is a bonus.

Not everyone in Tokyo lives so close to train stations. There are places inside the 23 wards where the nearest train station is more than 3 kilometers away. You could walk, but it would take around 50 minutes.

I should also add that if you want to move around the west region of Tokyo, you're better off using a bus because there are no trains there that lets you move north or south. The Tobu Tojo Line, Seibu Ikebukuro Line, and the JR Chuo Line all move in the east/west direction.

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