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U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

washingtonpost.com

691–700 of 751 posts

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you could probably reduce the paperwork that doctors do these days by a factor of 4 and not loose anything of value. Maybe, but this sounds like some vague hunch based on ???. I very highly doubt the healthcare industry would tolerate doctors wasting ~37.5% of their time (75% of paperwork time is wasteful * 50% of doctors' time spent on paperwork = minimum 37.5% of doctors time wasted). Doctors are expensive ,…

Based on working in the industry, and hearing from healthcare practitioners not quite first-hand, but second-hand. You mention profit efficiency, but all three of my points make sense even in light of that: (i) insurance is literally the way doctors get paid; (ii) lawsuits are hella expensive, and (iii) regardless of profit incentives you can't not follow the law. The software that doctors use is terrible . It's a pe…

The Veteran Affair's legacy system is still written in MUMPS.

I believe the VA has poured literally billions over the last decade to fully modernize it. It hasn't happened yet to my knowledge.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly why I cannot stand using the kiosks to order food at a fast-food restaurant. They take what used to be a five-second process to verbally state an order, and turn it into a multi-minute agony of taps, reading, canceling suggested upsells, etc. before finally getting to completion. I guess the restaurant saves having to pay a person at the counter to take the orders, at the expense of massive customer frustrati…

> and turn it into a multi-minute (...) suggested upsells This is how the restaurant chain deploying those kiosks sees it. > the restaurant saves having to pay a person at the counter to take the orders, at the expense of massive customer frustration to the point where I hardly ever go to these places anymore This is self-correcting over time, as more and more places adopt such systems. It's just another supplier-dri…

Market for lemons, or the old saying about bad money always pushes out the good money.

For another example see touch-screen automotive UIs, universally hated by everyone except the bean counters, so we're stuck with them forever.

Also WRT the BK next door, its probably 5 minutes away by car or 30 minutes away on foot, which explains the corporate push toward "Walkable cities" and so forth. At my last onsite office job, there was a deli on the first floor and we were essentially captive customers; in theory there were plenty of places to walk within a half hour walk, but in practice its raining and 40 degrees so we were forced to shop at the company store, so to speak.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this "new" trend of "quiet quitting" sounds so silly. People have been behaving like that for a very long time and they've probably always done it.

It’s worse than silly. I had to ragequit this ( https://hbr.org/2022/09/when-quiet-quitting-is-worse-than-th... ) article from HBR on “quiet quitting” after reading: > Quiet quitters continue to fulfill their primary responsibilities, but they’re less willing to engage in activities known as citizenship behaviors: no more staying late, showing up early, or attending non-mandatory meetings. Yes, we should all bereave…

Such nerve. Instead of the talking about the downsides of increased surveillance and quantification of worker performance, blame the worker for not going above and beyond. As an employeee in this new landscape, of course you'll save powder for your official requirements, that's OKRs and KPIs working as designed.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#694

Wittgenstein's ruler comes to mind: what is 'productivity' measuring? A quick glance at the chart in the article suggests that the variance of this metric is huge. It is more or less a white noise source with a small DC offset. Given the formula the BLS uses, I would be hard pressed to calculate my own productivity (outside of lawyers and people working on assembly lines or at fast food establishments most people do…

Agreed. This seems like a newspaper trying to squeeze an article out of a weak signal.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#695
What is this nonsense "productivity" and how does one assign a number to it?

I think it's largely a monetary artifact. A bunch of money sloshed around the system. Those transactions inflated GDP. Then, with a lag, official inflation numbers caught up. Now "productivity" is lower than it had been at the peak, just because transients pass through our measurement systems.

Something about using the word "productivity" for this particular measurement feels borderline evil. So much that is productive in the vernacular sense is not productive in the GDP sense, and vice versa.

Having and raising children is productive (of human beings!), but it only enters GDP stats insofar as you buy formula, diapers, and college tuitions.

If you care for your own ageing parents, or if you raise your own children, GDP goes down. But if you take a job and pay somebody else to be a caregiver, then GDP goes up. Consider the extreme example of two women who pay each other to raise each other's children.

In Ukraine, wheat production is down. Some unmeasurable production of defense services is way up. Since the soldiers don't pay their squadmates to lay down covering fire, that working-together isn't captured by GDP.

We call it "productivity", but it's just a measure of intermediation by money. It'd be like measuring "social activity" as aggregate Facebook likes across the country.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#696
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the person just knows if the procedure is covered because the insurance companies have stable standards and trust the medical providers rather than having it all be JIT decisions based on rules that either constantly shift or are so vague/low trust None those are related to use or lack of use of technology. Those are purely bureaucratic rules setup by insurance carriers. > And back in the paper days, the staff w…

> None those are related to use or lack of use of technology. Those are purely bureaucratic rules setup by insurance carriers. They are very much related to use of technology, because they are enabled by technology. The degree of bullshit paperwork every white-collar worker has to deal with nowadays is a direct consequence of computers making it possible to make us do that work, and for the recipients to process it.…

> The degree of bullshit paperwork every white-collar worker has to deal with nowadays is a direct consequence of computers making it possible to make us do that work, and for the recipients to process it.

These are bold claims backed up by little to no data other than your anecdotal observations. Productivity has generally been on a steady upward trend in the US since it was first measured in 1947. My own professional service business, which does require a decent amount of "bullshit paperwork" would not have been possible at the scale it achieved without technology.

> In contrast, if you tried the same processes few decades ago, it would mean hiring dedicated people on both ends, and the costs - as measured by their salaries - would be clearly visible.

Ever seen Mad Men? There was literally a full floor full of human beings typing out bullshit letters on typewriters because computers didn't exist in the era.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#698
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> easier information retrieval is smaller than the time spent in increased paperwork What paperwork creation increased as a result of digital record use? I'm beginning to think y'all are conflating the increase of documentation with the use of digitalization. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

> I'm beginning to think y'all are conflating the increase of documentation with the use of digitalization. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I think what we're talking about is a clear (if non-typical) example of the Jevons paradox[0]. Digitalization makes creating and processing paperwork more efficient, allowing the overall organization as a system to support/afford more of it. As a result, amount of documentatio…

Hilariously that wikipedia page mentions nothing about productivity. In fact an article that talks about Jevon's paradox says this:

According to the Ford Motor Company, its fuel economy ranged between thirteen and twenty-one miles per gallon. There are vehicles on the road today that do worse than that; have we really made so little progress in more than a hundred years? But focussing on miles per gallon is the wrong way to assess the environmental impact of cars. Far more revealing is to consider the productivity of driving. Today, in contrast to the early nineteen-hundreds, any American with a license can cheaply travel almost anywhere, in almost any weather, in extraordinary comfort; can drive for thousands of miles with no maintenance other than refuelling; can easily find gas, food, lodging, and just about anything else within a short distance of almost any road; and can order and eat meals without undoing a seat belt or turning off the ceiling-mounted DVD player.

A modern driver, in other words, gets vastly more benefit from a gallon of gasoline—makes far more economical use of fuel—than any Model T owner ever did. Yet motorists’ energy consumption has grown by mind-boggling amounts, and, as the productivity of driving has increased and the cost of getting around has fallen, the global market for cars has surged. (Two of the biggest road-building efforts in the history of the world are currently under way in India and China.) And developing small, inexpensive vehicles that get a hundred miles to the gallon would only exacerbate that trend. The problem with efficiency gains is that we inevitably reinvest them in additional consumption.[0]

In other words, you're too narrowly focusing on "miles per gallon", not the fact that "any American with a license can cheaply travel almost anywhere, in almost any weather, in extraordinary comfort; can drive for thousands of miles with no maintenance other than refuelling; can easily find gas, food, lodging, and just about anything else within a short distance of almost any road; and can order and eat meals without undoing a seat belt or turning off the ceiling-mounted DVD player."

For example, in the show Mad Men, you'd see a whole floor full of human beings who's sole job was to type out letters on typewriters. Now, those jobs are obsolete and the white collar worker is responsible for them. Still bullshit paperwork, but the white collar worker now has to do them.

The overall trend for productivity since it was tracked in 1947 has been on an upward trend with its sharpest 1H downward trend ever this past year. Are you seriously suggesting white collar workers magically got more bullshit paperwork just these past 2 quarters?

[0] - https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/12/20/the-efficiency...

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#699
post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> None those are related to use or lack of use of technology. Those are purely bureaucratic rules setup by insurance carriers. They are very much related to use of technology, because they are enabled by technology. The degree of bullshit paperwork every white-collar worker has to deal with nowadays is a direct consequence of computers making it possible to make us do that work, and for the recipients to process it.…

> The degree of bullshit paperwork every white-collar worker has to deal with nowadays is a direct consequence of computers making it possible to make us do that work, and for the recipients to process it. These are bold claims backed up by little to no data other than your anecdotal observations. Productivity has generally been on a steady upward trend in the US since it was first measured in 1947. My own profession…

> Ever seen Mad Men? There was literally a full floor full of human beings typing out bullshit letters on typewriters because computers didn't exist in the era.

That's my point: those people received salaries for typing out those letters, making the cost of it clearly visible to the business.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is such a small percent and where are you getting your data?

"Long COVID" and medical journals.... Even the highest estimates only have it as a very small percentage of symptomatic patients which is already a subset of the general population.

I've been reading it's 10 to 20% of people who test positive have symptoms at least a month, and as much as 5 to 7% three to six months later. The US workforce is around 160 million people. About 60% of the population is estimated to have had SARS-Cov-2 at least once.

60% of 160 million is 96 million. So 5% of that is 4.6 million people or so with at least a solid portion of a year of symptoms.

There's mounting evidence that some of the damage could take years to recover or even be lifelong.

The current word from the Mayo Clinic is about 20% of folks have what they're calling Post-COVID Syndrome between one month and one year after an infection, with at least one symptom likely from the viral infection. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i...

If we look at 20% of 60% of the workforce that's around 19 million people symptomatic for over a month after the initial positive test. Twelve percent, almost one in eight people in the workplace.

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