Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#691

Post by Clubber » Sun, May 08, 2022, 9:34 PM UTC

mmmpop wrote: post #672

Clubber wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should really stop with the hyperbole. It makes people not take you seriously and ruins the message, even if valid.

As a person not necessarily opposed to labor unions, I'm curious as to how the previous post was hyperbolic? Violence and organized labor go together like milk and cereal, so let's not act like union folks are all saints. Somewhat relevant: https://www.9news.com/article/news/investigations/denver-fir...

>Violence and organized labor go together like milk and cereal

What do you base this on? Movies?

Telling someone to strap on a helmet isn't a threat of violence to a reasonable person. Putting a stuffed rat on a ledge near someone's bed is also not a threat of violence. If it had a noose or something, you'd have a better argument.

Here's actual violence done against picketers and looked the other way by police in Alabama:

https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/striking-miners-wife-hit-by-...

Here's a few more people running into picketers in Alabama. Apparently these are strikebreakers:

https://www.wbrc.com/2021/06/08/video-shows-trucks-hitting-w...

Here's another:

https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/news/crime/police-in...

And another:

https://abc7news.com/uc-union-strike-university-of-californi...

There's plenty more.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#692

Post by quadrifoliate » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:01 PM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #456

nomdenator wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what I'm missing in this concept. You would think that the people in charge would see that real estate is an unnecessary expense, where applicable. Also, I've been to a lot of meetings where we were told "there are other things people value in work besides money". Maybe being able to manage your own work environment and save gas and time fits in that slot. A content, well rested workforce would be better IMO…

Eng manager here. Honestly not everyone is sold on remote being better much less equivalent in productivity or output compared to being in an office. Remote also requires a lot of rethinking of team dynamics, work allocation and just plain old making sure stuff is done. Make no mistake, WFH may be arguably better and more pleasant from the employee perspective, but it makes projects more difficult for the rest of the…

> the ICs are slackers, loafing around, lying on tickets, getting bogged down and not speaking up...

And let me guess, bringing them back to the office is going to quickly turn them into happy and productive coworkers?

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#693

Post by Closi » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

twayt wrote: post #689

Closi wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second, I am not going to take it the wrong way, but your comment makes it seem like you have some insight into a complete stranger's life without any information to go off of. I mean it was just a hunch, but looking at your comment history definitely implies it too. For instance, while your response states that you are comfortable getting lunch your post history says this: > Feel like a social failure during lunch…

> Which implies the opposite. You have no way of determining that unless you're in the same environment. For someone who's usually successful socially, it is an utter shame to have to sit through the lunch and be forced to listen to a couple of idiots hopped who can't shut up. Would you want to be in that situation? The other two comments have no bearing whatsoever on your point. The first one describes what it is li…

> [...] based on your comments you show a lack of understanding of what socializing at work feels like for a lot of people.

So you agree that socialising at work is more difficult for some people than others...

And you agree that it's one of the reasons you work from home...

And the part of my premise that you were disagreeing with was that I said some people work from home because they struggle to create relationships while at work...

But you have stated is true for you when working in an office environment...

So... It sounds like you at least partially agree? Or is there something I am missing?

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#694

Post by givemeethekeys » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:12 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #644

coffeeblack wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I close my work laptop and that’s it for the day. Simple.

Seriously! Why do people think that working remotely entitles their boss to 24/7 access? Come on, set some boundaries!

They make the mistake of installing Slack on their phone.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#695

Post by lizknope » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:41 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #517

lizknope wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had an office with a door and window for 12 years at 2 different companies. It was great. I left the door open 90% of the time but it was great to be able to close the door for privacy the other 10%. I changed to a much better job in 2019 regarding work and salary but everyone including the VP's are in cubicles. It is really annoying when everyone around you is on a different conference call and you have to block t…

So recognisable. In our office everyone is on international teams so everyone is side by side on different calls. It's a mess. It was like this before covid but our company took advantage to reduce the number of floors and make all the office space hotdesks. So now I sit beside colleagues I don't even know and it's even harder to talk about noise.

Yeah, 75% of my team on the current and previous projects are in other parts of the US. We just had a massive reorg to make it more flexible to assign free people to projects around the world.

The CEO and senior VP's have said that we work better when we can see each other in person. At other companies I have really enjoyed brainstorming in a conference room around a white board or solving problems together.

But after this reorg we are going to have even LESS projects together as a local team. My response to my immediate manager was "Sure but then assign people to projects from the same office." It makes no sense to say "come in to work together" and then put us on even MORE remote projects.

A few of the managers also have people working on the project in Israel and India. The managers are constantly on the phone including 7am and 9pm meetings for the foreign offices. I'm glad I don't have to do that but why tell them to come in the office? They are already disrupting their personal lives for the company with those meeting times but it does make sense to make it convenient for the people in India when there are 10 people from India and only one from the US on the call.

I'm glad they are paying us well but the logic of this is idiotic.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#696

Post by civilized » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

givemeethekeys wrote: post #694

civilized wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously! Why do people think that working remotely entitles their boss to 24/7 access? Come on, set some boundaries!

They make the mistake of installing Slack on their phone.

I wonder how many fully grown adult humans are walking around not knowing that they can silence push notifications of any and all types from any and all applications they wish. Their phones must be Hell on earth.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#697

Post by ZephyrBlu » Sun, May 08, 2022, 11:33 PM UTC

twayt wrote: post #630

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More chance to chat about random things or casually ask work-related questions. > I've learnt way more reading papers and documentation than being in the same physical space as more senior colleagues. People sometimes bring this point up re: onboarding but I don't quite understand what people learn that they can't do otherwise remotely It is much harder to gain tacit knowledge (The important stuff) when you're remote…

> It is much harder to gain tacit knowledge (The important stuff) when you're remote. I read a lot, and it's no match for picking a skilled person's brain for even just 30min-1hr. I have the exact opposite experience. During discussions, people are less informed with facts and speak conceptually. In a book or documentation, there's both. Thus is easier to get more reliable information. It is easier to follow logical…

By definition, tacit knowledge is hard to codify. If you're reading facts or documentation it's definitely not tacit knowledge.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_knowledge

> It is easier to follow logical chains constructed people but the constituents of said chain could potentially be fraught with approximations, thus obfuscating the entire story.

It's not possible to logically explain everything. Intuition is very important. Hence, the value of tacit knowledge.

I would generally much rather hear an expert talk conceptually and about their intuition than them give me a lecture on logic and facts. It's impossible to glean some things through pure logic.

For example, what is clean code?

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#698

Post by dmatech » Mon, May 09, 2022, 12:51 AM UTC

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

Understandable. Some of us actually want team cohesion and collaboration instead of working on Jira tickets in isolation. Others want a purely asynchronous communication style that keeps the chit-chat to an absolute minimum.

I personally want to know what's going on in far-flung corners of the company, because I'm fundamentally a generalist who wants to understand the big picture. I don't just want to put in my 8 hours and clock out, although I can see why people just trying to put their kids through school might want to do that.

Personality types and home situations matter a great deal in these situations.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#699

Post by code_runner » Mon, May 09, 2022, 1:08 AM UTC

thirdsun wrote: post #678

code_runner wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with both of these hot takes… I love a hybrid approach because I really enjoy the random conversations that crop up in the office… but my social life is so much improved outside of work in the last year or so that everything about physically being present feels tedious. I have a coworker I call to talk shop for a few minutes and then bullshit for another 15-20 minutes almost daily when I’m wfh. I’m very stron…

The problem with the hybrid approach is that I’d still have to live in the area. However I want to be geographically independent from my employer and prefer a quiet, low cost of living area as my home.

Yeah, in that case solely remote works best for sure. Maybe you fly to the office (if there is one) a couple times a year… though still nice for that to be optional

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#700

Post by seanjacobs1981 » Mon, May 09, 2022, 1:43 AM UTC

Sorry but human beings aren't meant to live or work in isolation and no, Zoom does not cut it. Someone resigning would not change my mind, I'd say "don't let the door hit you on the way out becauase we have about 10,000 other people in line for your job who would happily work at Apple Park."

Furthermore, it is NOT healhty to sit at home. It causes "cabin fever" and that's a well known and documented fact. It causes unhealthy habits. It IS healthy, however, to leave your home and get out into the world.

This whole issue tells me how incredibly ridiculous people have become not to realize the small businesses they are literally killing off with their "i've got to stay home" attidude. How selfish of people to not realize that businesses around workplaces depend on the commerce. So basically it's just OK to say, "hey who cares about you small business owner, I am too lazy to commute and I've made a millione excuses to need to stay home and supposedly work."

I can go into an office and get 50 times more productive things done interacting with real humans and working together. It's also fulfilling to socialize and if you are an introvert then it helps you that much more.

It's just plain sad to see so many people whining on and on when they are literally damaging themselves from isolation....and video is NOT a replacement and never will be.

Note also that the United States' productivity is going down....wonder why.