Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start • Hacker News Board

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#691

Post by sofixa » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

robotresearcher wrote: post #493

gbrown wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Error: cannot start (no connectivity). Please call a licensed repair technician to service your vehicle."

Too helpful. More like "Failed with error 0xC0000005". That's a real error Windows 11 gave me this week. I know, never install a Windows version less than two years old. It's been so long I forgot.

As if any Windows or in general Microsoft product gives useful error messages.

Hex error codes, or generic "Something went wrong" errors are the norm at Microsoft.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#692

Post by ceejayoz » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 2:06 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_69 wrote: post #690

ceejayoz wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others in the thread have shown the corresponding iOS local backup options. I don’t see much difference between “confidently stated but provably wrong in seconds via Google” and a lie.

That's not what you said. You claimed it was a lie referring to Time Machine, not local backup options on iOS. macOS backup solutions are pretty much irrelevant, because it's obvious you can backup macOS using any tool you like, it's a desktop operating system where the user can run binaries with administrator privileges, unlike iOS. The compelling inference is they were talking about iOS, making Time Machine irrelev…

> You claimed it was a lie referring to Time Machine, not local backup options on iOS.

Like I said, others had already covered the iOS side of things.

There are no Apple devices for which the statement is true, and the certainty of "Apple conveniently disallows people from making local backups encrypted with your own key" makes me quite comfortable considering it to be a dishonest statement rather than merely ignorant.

Similar to "vaccines don't work"; whether it's out of ignorance or maliciousness, it's a lie.

(Further complicating matters: telling lies even results in believing them to be truthful over time; it's still a lie! https://www.brandeis.edu/now/2018/november/lying-old-gutches...)

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#693

Post by phkahler » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #205

silisili wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait what, do Corvettes not just unlock and open when you pull the handle? Every vehicle I've ever owned, from the 80s to now, manual or electric lock, the front doors both open when the handle is pulled, locked or not. If this isn't the case, I'm almost inclined to consider that criminally negligent.

> Police believe that when James Rogers got into the vehicle, a cable became loose and cut off the power to the operate the horn and locks. Rogers did not know how to manually unlock the vehicle and became trapped inside > the 2007 Corvette has a manual release located on the floorboard by the driver's seat Having random cables cut doesn't help the situation, but the issue was not knowing how to manually release the…

>> Having random cables cut doesn't help the situation

It was the battery cable or similar, which cut power to all the electronic means of getting out - including the other door. It was not "cut" in the sense of someone using a knife, it just came loose or similarly broke contact. This is a design failure, not a RTFM failure.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#694

Post by phkahler » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #444

seanp2k2 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree; it's like all the rollaway accidents that happen now because of electronic shifters: https://www.safetyresearch.net/the-persistence-of-rollaway/ Design matters, and bad designs can literally be deadly. Why auto mfgs feel the need to "innovate" with shifter designs is beyond me. The worst part is how every mfg seems to be implementing a different design of bad electronic shifters, from wheels and touchscreens…

I drove a rental with a rotary-dial shifter. That is the single most braindead UX thing I've seen in a car that doesn't involve a touch-screen. We've had PRND(L) levers as the standard for shifting in automatics for over 50 years now, and the dial offers no advantages that I can see.

>> We've had PRND(L) levers as the standard for shifting in automatics for over 50 years now, and the dial offers no advantages that I can see.

My guess is that the dial costs less, so it is done for the company not the customer. Many cases of bad design come from prioritizing the manufacturer over the customer.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#695

Post by sofixa » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

donmcronald wrote: post #156

selfhoster11 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sooner or later, we won't even remember how it was before. Who even remembers the internet before advertising morphed it into something completely different? How long was that period? 5 years? That's what worries me. After a long stint of playing entirely only smartphone games, going back to play some older titles on PC was... really weird. None of the usual pay to play friction or engagement traps that are so ubiq…

Most kids don't even know what it's like to play a game that's not riddled with ads and designed around microtransactions. There are a lot of things that require a generation (of people) to change. For example, the latency of game streaming services is awful if you're used to a local experience, but if you ask a 12 year old that's never experienced low latency, local gaming, they don't even realize it could be differ…

> For example, the latency of game streaming services is awful if you're used to a local experience, but if you ask a 12 year old that's never experienced low latency, local gaming, they don't even realize it could be different. They'll happily play high latency streamed games.

That's subjective and dependent on the service and the game. I have Stadia, GeForce Now, and local games ( with some overlap). Latency is minimal and barely visible ( invisible for grand strategy games).

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#696

Post by phkahler » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

betwixthewires wrote: post #468

seanp2k2 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree; it's like all the rollaway accidents that happen now because of electronic shifters: https://www.safetyresearch.net/the-persistence-of-rollaway/ Design matters, and bad designs can literally be deadly. Why auto mfgs feel the need to "innovate" with shifter designs is beyond me. The worst part is how every mfg seems to be implementing a different design of bad electronic shifters, from wheels and touchscreens…

It's not just auto manufacturers. It seems literally everything is being designed with a philosophy of "fuck the user" in mind. I cannot think of a single thing more complicated than a concrete block that functions better now than previous versions did 10 years ago, and I'm sure there are some things that work at least as good, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

>> I cannot think of a single thing more complicated than a concrete block that functions better now than previous versions did 10 years ago...

I've got news for you. My uncle worked in construction most his life. He told me the concrete isn't as good today as it used to be. He said in some places for shipping they "blow it around". Meaning you don't put it on a ship using a conveyor, you do something similar to blowing dust through a pipe? I never asked for more detail. He thought the handling was exposing it to humidity or in some way degrading the concrete. This would be another case of prioritizing cost/efficiency over the customer.

So even your humble concrete block might not be as good as they used to make em'

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#697

Post by phkahler » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

jjk166 wrote: post #356

silisili wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no accident here, unless I missed something. The guy just lost power to his door locks after he got in.

I'm talking more generally about cars not always unlocking after an accident. In this specific scenario, you still have a component failure. Something that was supposed to be connected wasn't. It would be nice if they designed a better fail safe but it's not a case of "corvette handles aren't designed to unlock."

It's not about locked or unlocked. Pulling the handle is supposed to open the door. Locking prevents that. In this case, the handle doesn't mechanically unlatch the door, it does so electronically. With no power it is not possible for it to unlatch. Since locking is then a software feature, we might say those doors are locked by default and require software and electronics to make them open. Because of that there is a mechanical thing you can pull, but nobody knows where that is or that it exists unless they are told.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#698

Post by devilbunny » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

selimthegrim wrote: post #481

aidenn0 wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drove a rental with a rotary-dial shifter. That is the single most braindead UX thing I've seen in a car that doesn't involve a touch-screen. We've had PRND(L) levers as the standard for shifting in automatics for over 50 years now, and the dial offers no advantages that I can see.

Pray tell what make and model this was so I can run as fast as my legs can take me in the opposite direction if Hertz tries to palm one off on me

I rented a Ford Edge two months ago that had one. It was quite distracting. At the end of a week, I still hadn't internalized how it worked. I had to think about it every time.

On my old Chevrolet Tahoe, I can tell what gear I just shifted into by feel (shifting into D, it has a slight tendency to overshoot the normal overdrive mode and end up locked into 3rd). And of course, this is essentially a nonissue on manual transmissions.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#699

Post by bm-rf » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

alasdair_ wrote: post #624

MAGZine wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a reminder, "Premium Connectivity" package was originally included for with an unpublished end date for their vehicles, until it wasn't. All of the remote controls you talk about being free are provided over cellular connections, in addition to nav, voice support, and telemetry being sent back to tesla. as such, tesla is subject to the same economics as toyota, they have just decided to hide it in the price of the…

I have a 2014 model S and I’ve never paid for any of these features, yet have them all. Is this a model 3 thing?

I believe older cars got this for free forever, similar to unlimited supercharging.

Re: Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start

#700

Post by soared » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

shostack wrote: post #549

soared wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting thought. Here’s the math. Toyotas current incentive is zero down, 1.9% apr for 72 months. The typical rav4 costs $33k. Over the life on the loan (6 years) you’d pay about $1,500 in interest. If you paid $8/mo it would take 15.6 years to have paid a total of $1,500 in monthly fees. Likely if you pay $8, you also pay for another subscription. So say $16/mo on average makes $1,500 in only 7.3 years. Monthly…

The total value captured isn't just the initial subscription. The LTV calculation should also incorporate, just off the top of my head: sale of valuable customer data, improved targeting of ads for new cars based on that telemetry, upsells to additional subscription services, increases in subscription price, affiliate commissions from other subscription services that get bundled in, etc. They don't have these things…

Auto related data is already huge thing, but dealerships don’t do much in the way of collection and sale. Someone who is shopping for a car is super valuable to advertise to, but after that purchase they lose all their value.

Telemetry data straight from a cars location is not sold, if it even exists. It would be extremely valuable but seems potentially illegal.