China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’ • Hacker News Board

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#691

Post by gwbas1c » Sun, Sep 26, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

pid-1 wrote: post #179

gwbas1c wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the actual reason so many governments are speeding the push against crypto might be related to a future of high inflation and high gov debt The reason why we have inflation and debt is to keep the value of our currencies stable. IE, if people want to use dollars, the US government can print more dollars to satisfy the demand. (And thus keep the value stable.) Cryptocurrency's volatile value is a result of its inabi…

> The reason why we have inflation and debt is to keep the value of our currencies stable. I'm not following. By definition, inflation is what happens when the price of a currency is not stable. > Remember: Currency is not an investment. A good currency has a stable value over time; otherwise it's very difficult to conduct commerce Agreed. But in countries with high inflation, such as mine, you will lose money if all…

> But in countries with high inflation, such as mine, you will lose money if all your wealth is stored as fiat

That's also the case in countries with low inflation. That's why, in the US, wealthy people don't stuff cash in mattresses, or keep most of their wealth in general bank accounts. They buy stocks, bonds, real estate, ect. This is also why, in the US, investment vehicles like 401ks and IRAs are highly encouraged.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#692

Post by gwbas1c » Sun, Sep 26, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

pskiba wrote: post #198

gwbas1c wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the actual reason so many governments are speeding the push against crypto might be related to a future of high inflation and high gov debt The reason why we have inflation and debt is to keep the value of our currencies stable. IE, if people want to use dollars, the US government can print more dollars to satisfy the demand. (And thus keep the value stable.) Cryptocurrency's volatile value is a result of its inabi…

> The reason why we have inflation and debt is to keep the value of our currencies stable A stable currency would have an inflation rate of 0%. Inflation does not cause currency stability, it decreases the value of the currency. By definition, its value is changing.

The USD historically has an inflation rate of 4% a year; or prices double every 17 years.

The USD is one of the most stable currencies in the world.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#693

Post by quantumBerry » Sun, Sep 26, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #686

quantumBerry wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ad hominem attacks undermine your arguments and suggest that you don’t actually have very strong argument, instead you’re forced to attack the character of the person your discussing with, due to an inability to attack their argument. Try harder. I did attack your arguments, including many other points and I never called you a loser. Quit being so defensive. I said those who continually look for ways to make somethi…

> The only of the two of us who had made an ad hominem against the other is you, by saying I have an "inability to attack their (your) argument." Thanks hypocrite! Re-read my comment, that’s not what I said. It’s difficult to have a discussion with someone who selectively quotes text, and deliberately ignores the wider context. > I'm not a fan of stable coins, but how many people you reckon are buying DAI or USDT wit…

Why are you wasting so many 'watts' sending this out? Every watt you use for debating on HN is a watt not used for something more productive. [ Personally I prefer units of energy like joule, power is not a measurement of wasted energy. If I wasted 10 kW for 1 minute it's not as bad as wasting 1 W for 11,000 minutes]

>If it looks like an value gaining asset, and people treat it like a value gaining asset, then it’s a value gaining asset. Not a currency.

>I’m not sure how you’ve ended up deciding that you think I treat crypto as an investment, not a currency, after I’ve explicitly said the opposite.

Again you go on contradicting yourself whenever you find it convenient. You are possibly the most disingenuous, contradictory, hypocritical person I've met on HN. Fine to waste 'watts' on social media news sites but not to send a payment to your unbanked cousin in El Salvador. Have fun thinking like a person who only looks for ways to fail, rather than ways to succeed.

Not a biblical person myself, but I'm going to take a note out of the bible on this one : " Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself."

Have a good one.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#694

Post by avianlyric » Sun, Sep 26, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

quantumBerry wrote: post #693

avianlyric wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only of the two of us who had made an ad hominem against the other is you, by saying I have an "inability to attack their (your) argument." Thanks hypocrite! Re-read my comment, that’s not what I said. It’s difficult to have a discussion with someone who selectively quotes text, and deliberately ignores the wider context. > I'm not a fan of stable coins, but how many people you reckon are buying DAI or USDT wit…

Why are you wasting so many 'watts' sending this out? Every watt you use for debating on HN is a watt not used for something more productive. [ Personally I prefer units of energy like joule, power is not a measurement of wasted energy. If I wasted 10 kW for 1 minute it's not as bad as wasting 1 W for 11,000 minutes] >If it looks like an value gaining asset, and people treat it like a value gaining asset, then it’s a…

One bitcoin transaction: 1821.63 kWh

One comment on HN, probably around 100mWh.

One is not like the other. But please continue to pretend otherwise.

> Again you go on contradicting yourself whenever you find it convenient.

Please be explicit and show we’re I’ve contradicted myself. I don’t believe I have, but happy to be proven otherwise.

> Not a biblical person myself, but I'm going to take a note out of the bible on this one : " Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself."

You make a good point. Why have I bothered to talk to someone who is so clearly disconnected from reality.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#695

Post by avianlyric » Mon, Sep 27, 2021, 12:13 AM UTC

cortic wrote: post #636

avianlyric wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don’t overestimate the importance of crypto in this world. Crypto investments in renewables are, at best, a rounding error. The ROI from them certainly won’t offset the very real harm being done by all the additional fossil plants being brought online to deal with the increased demand they create.

Fossil fuels being used to fill demand of any sort is its own problem. We need global carbon taxes on a Montreal Protocol level to incentivize any excess demand (investment) to target renewables. -But with this, crypto would be a great boost to renewable technology, guaranteeing a minimum return for business investing in Research and Development.

Please defend this behaviour

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/old-coal-plant-i...

Its not unique either. There’s a company in the U.K. that bought an old coal plant, to convert to gas operators, to provide power solely for a crypto mining operation.

Simple fact of the matter is that it currently cheaper and easier for miners to use fossil fuels, then build renewables. Which is exactly what they’re doing.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#696

Post by dangerface » Mon, Sep 27, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #548

sudosysgen wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone who needs CNY, that can then buy real goods and export them.

OK, so that may have worked before the ban, but unless you have a way to export under the counter, I presume this route is gone after the btc transaction ban.

The don't live in china after they cash out, they have the money to immigrate to a better country.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#697

Post by quantumBerry » Mon, Sep 27, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

lottin wrote: post #685

quantumBerry wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the white paper about bitcoin. Does it say anything about it being an investment, guaranteeing stability of exchanging rates to fiat, providing interest, or any appreciation? I'll be waiting for you to cite that. There's a lot of disingenuous people out there, that for some reason believe bitcoin or other cryptos are "investments." I guess they missed that they are called crypto-CURRENCIES and not crypto-investm…

Again, there are no dollar influencers, with millions of followers, urging people to mortgage their homes to buy more dollars. That's because everybody knows you can't get rich by buying dollars, because dollars are not an investment. And something that isn't an investment can't be a pyramid scheme, because a pyramid scheme is a type of investment scheme. Therefore we must dismiss the idea that the dollar is a pyrami…

Of course you can get rich by buying dollars. Ever seen a street money changer? It's big business in places like Iraq, Argentina, and other places where dollars are desired. You can make a cut out of every dollar you sell for less desirable local currency, and then another cut when you use the less desirable currency to buy dollars from people who need local currency. Does that mean dollars are an investment?

There are certainly influencers as well influencing you to start FOREX trading changing dollars back and forth to get rich, or leveraging dollar exchanges in a zero sum game attempt to strike it big. This blog boasts a man made $6M trading USD and NZD [1].

You use circular logic that bitcoin is an investment because it is a pyramid scheme which is by your definition an investment. Then you say dollars are not an investment because "everybody knows you can't make money off dollars" (which is patently false.)

Some people may view bitcoin as an investment. Some people may view dollars as an investment. There is no requirement it be treated as one. Again the bitcoin whitepaper, and open implementation of it which you can readily acquire the source code to, makes no promises of returns, stability in exchange rate, or appreciation. Any pyramid scheme is the fault of some swindlers who could create a pyramid scheme in any number of currencies -- not "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System." You seem bitter at bitcoin because you chose to take the word of swindlers rather than the actual white paper and public implementation which made no such promise of profits.

[1] https://forextradingstrategies4u.com/millionaire-forex-trade...

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#698

Post by johanneskanybal » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

sobellian wrote: post #49

johanneskanybal wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ok to not like crypto but how about sticking to the truth? * There's many things much more volatile than crypto, the biggest markets being vix if you're a hedgefund and pretty much all derivates like options if you're a gambling man. btc in particular is only 2x from many traditional markets: https://charts.woobull.com/bitcoin-volatility-vs-other-asset... * The second part of only 5% making a profit is made up a…

One might disagree on what exactly is a comparable resource. A digital currency could just as well store everyone's balance in a giant SQL database. In exchange for utter centralization the energy consumption drops to essentially zero. IIUC a PoS coin will also have much smaller energy consumption. So we have a situation where a collection of people are using huge, huge amounts of energy to speculate not only on digi…

Digital money is as easy as you giving me $10 and me making a record of it in a text file that's not really what the rest of us are talking about.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#699

Post by epgui » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 7:55 PM UTC

the_third_wave wrote: post #682

epgui wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Central banks aren’t regulated by the media. 2) The expansion of the money supply is not necessarily inflationary. 3) Inflation is very different from taxation: if you hold cash you’re supposed to circulate it, either by spending it or by investing it. Inflation disincentivizes cash-hoarding, and also deflated the value of any debt you might have.

1) ...but I can only assume you realise they are sensitive to political pressure which again derives from public opinion which is controlled by the media... 2) ...but it generally is just that, inflationary. The fact that there can be exceptions to the rule does not make the rule less valid. 3) ...and inflation is also used by governments to provide funds (by "printing money" in some way or other, the actual implemen…

1) central bank loss of independence is one of the hallmark of failed central banks. I hardly think it's reasonable to think that all central banks are dysfunctional in such a way: while these institutions can and do break down, they are not designed to break down in this way. You're free to argue whether a given central bank is or is not sufficiently independent, but that's a more specific problem than the over-generalization made here.

2) it's not an exception to the rule at all. The rule for inflation doesn't mention how much money exists, it only mentions how much money circulates. More money existing does not necessarily mean more money circulating (eg.: money tends to concentrate in certain places for various reasons, rather than diffusing freely).

3) Sure, but two things that have similar features are not always similar in essence or nature. Swords and needles are both sharp, but you wouldn't argue that they're essentially the same. In fact in your own example, taxation for certain purposes could be either inflationary or deflationary (eg.: austerity measures, including those that involve taxation, are deflationary by design).