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The majority of 18- to 29-year-olds in the US are now living with their parents

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Re: The majority of 18- to 29-year-olds in the US are now living with their parents

#691
post #681

There are 5 18-29-year-olds in this house (plus myself). Here's what we learned. Very, very few companies will consider an applicant without a job history. Felons tend to have easier time finding employment than HS Graduates. Which companies hire w/o job history? Applicants don't know. It's not like companies advertise their hiring bias. Sometimes word of mouth may lead you to a reasonable employer - in which case th…

This is an excellent point. I know someone who is having a really hard time finding jobs because they just got out of school, but there are hardly any entry-level positions and the ones present are highly contested. They must have applied to >200 places at this point. This is in a non-software, but STEM field.

I have one son who took 4 years to score a job. In between applying to every local job listing, he also walked door-to-door trying to find an unadvertised position (which didn't work out).

He had state food prep certifications. The ALF who eventually hired him got a worker who's on time every day, easy to get on with & does his job with consistency and competence.

Re: The majority of 18- to 29-year-olds in the US are now living with their parents

#692
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people can not buy theoretical smaller cheaper house with no AC if that one is not on sale.

But given the choice between smaller and cheaper houses and larger and more expensive ones, they almost always choose the larger, more expensive ones. The university in town is over a hundred years old, and many of the dorms are that old too. Most have no air conditioning, and have insufficient power for a resident to add a window air conditioner without special approval. And the parents and students describe them as…

Is the university housing really cheaper? At my university it's 2-3x market rate.

Re: The majority of 18- to 29-year-olds in the US are now living with their parents

#693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in places like Tampa, Omaha, Cincinnati, and Phoenix the cost of housing (per square foot) has barely gone up at all. Maybe if you stop looking at like 2018. But my on-the-ground analysis living on one of these cities is cost of housing has fucking exploooded. I built a house just two years ago, which I thought was incredibly expensive at 2 times the median home price in the area. I had it in the back of my hea…

I agree with you in principle. Since the 2008 crisis, previously developer-friendly mid-sized Sunbelt metros have adopted some NIMBY building restriction policies that would make even coastal California blush. But so far, that hasn't really created a housing affordability crisis... yet. A lot of the impact has been mitigated by falling mortgage rates and rising wages. Let's just take Tampa, as one of the hotter housi…

The mortgage isn't the only cost. Interest is tax deductible. If you make decent money, you're better off with higher interest, lower house prices, lower insurance prices, and lower property tax. Let's not forget that debt does need to be repaid. Interest rates will likely never normalize, but anyone taking out 4-5x their income in debt, should at least be a little worried if they do...

Take Dallas Texas as an example. It wasn't affected very much by the 2008 bubble (probably because of high property taxes). The median price in 2000 was ~$100k and is now ~$240k [1]

Interest rates in 2000 were 8% [2]. They're currently 2.94%.

=PMT(0.0294/12, 30 * 12, -240000) # TODAY

$1,004.10

=PMT(0.08/12, 30 * 12, -100000 * 1.025^20) # 2000 with 2.5% inflation

$1,202.36

WOW! House prices are cheaper today! Not really. Let's take taxes into account.

Property taxes:

=240000 * 0.0208/12 # TODAY

$416

=100000 * 1.025^20 * 0.0208/12 # 2000

$284

Insurance is about $30 a month more today. And since the mortgage interest today is less than the $12k standard deduction, it probably won't get any tax benefit today. In 2000, it'd be about $100 a month.

But then there's the opportunity cost, too. Today your down payment is ~50% larger. The opportunity cost is about $100 more per month.

$1,004 + $416 + $30 + $100 = $1550 # TODAY

$1,202 + $284 - $100 = $1386 # 2000

It's only a ~12% difference. If you're in a more pricier market, the tax deduction was much juicier. Real monthly payments are ~50%+ more expensive. If you're an investor, cap rates are trash. Plus you're taking out debt to income that at any other point in history would seem insane.

The monthly payments aren't the big issue. The real trick is that by lowering interest rates from ~8% to ~3%, the Fed created $14T in real estate wealth out of thin air. That's where most of the inequality really stems from. For most people, their house represents the majority of their life's savings. If you're older and own a home, the Fed doubled your wealth. If you're younger and don't own a home, the Fed make increased your housing price by 5-20%, devalued whatever savings you had, and forced you to take on extreme levels of debt for a similar monthly payment on a house (which you probably don't have, because in real terms you need a ~50% bigger down payment).

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DAXRNSA

[2] http://www.freddiemac.com/pmms/pmms30.html

Re: The majority of 18- to 29-year-olds in the US are now living with their parents

#694
post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking from the younger generations perspective, this is a great way to destroy the relationship with your adult children. I'm sure it doesn't feel great for them to be dependent on you and face your scorn on a daily basis. I just hope the situation will never be reversed, for your sake.

Please don't post like this here. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24496544 for more explanation.

Sorry dang, my tone is wrong. I'll do better. I agree with what you wrote in your link.

Re: The majority of 18- to 29-year-olds in the US are now living with their parents

#695
post #377
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the world is awash in debt, pricing turns into a game of future-mortgaging chicken. Who's willing to promise more of their future to buy an asset?

That is actually really insightful! I cannot believe this is the first time I see the issue stated so clearly. So the whole thing comes down when you run out of other chickens.

It's essentially a distillation of underwriting standards, low/zero central bank interest rates, and consumer behavior.

Underwriting standards for mortgages are typically based on loan to value (LTV) and debt to income. In that calculating, value is traditionally defined as "what the market currently values comparable assets at" (aka comps). For debt, providers of credit (banks and the central mortgage agencies) are more concerned with ability to repay, rather than absolute debt. Consequently, monthly payment >> total price.

Therefore, in business as usual (moderate to high interest rates), there are caps on how much individuals can leverage with mortgages (i.e. eventually their LTV or debt to income will exceed standard limits and they'll be denied a mortgage).

Unfortunately, both of those key components are heavily influenced by central bank interest rates. If the Fed decides to plunk the rate at 0%, mortgage rates decrease as well.

Because mortgage rates have decreased, my resulting monthly payment for the same total loan value decreases. Or, conversely, the total loan value I can assume for a given monthly payment increases.

Because it increases, I can pay more for a house. And either I, or someone else does!

Now, a few months later, someone else wants to buy the 2nd house on the block. They call out an appraiser, who turns the crank on their standard process, looks at comps in the neighborhood, and values the 2nd house in light of the 1st home sale. Because that 1st sale was inflated (inasmuch as we can judge), the valuation on the 2nd house is likewise inflated.

Ultimately, both of these have the end result of raising the cap on how much borrowers can "afford" to pay (assuming static income) for the same asset. Whereby the financial system previously capped their effective leverage at one level, now it's allowing greater leverage (albeit greater leverage that "looks" like the same value, because the underlying inputs have changed).

Tl;dr - The financial system used to impose a cap on how much I could pay and qualify for a standard mortgage. Because of actions taken by central banks and consumer behavior, that financial system-imposed cap has effectively been lifted. Now, the consumer themselves is the primary brake on overpaying. And average consumers? They don't math too good.

Re: The majority of 18- to 29-year-olds in the US are now living with their parents

#696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a hurricane came and destroyed a bunch of people's homes and businesses and people stopped working, it would be more reasonable to say that "the hurricane caused mass unemployment" than it would be to say "the hurricane didn't cause unemployment, it was just people's individual decisions to not work out of a pile of flooded rubble that's causing the unemployment."

This doesn't seem like a fair analogy for a number of reasons. But mostly just that COVID itself is not destroying businesses, whereas a hurricane literally is.

A hurricane isn't directly destroying anything except the building the business operates from; the business still exists. In principle employees could still walk to the rubble to work and customers could walk to the rubble to exchange money for services, but the material conditions make both of those untenable, in the same way the material conditions of COVID make working and buying things untenable.

Re: The majority of 18- to 29-year-olds in the US are now living with their parents

#697

> Housing is more expensive for them than prior generations I harp on this constantly. But housing is not more expensive in the majority of American metros. Adjusted for inflation the median cost per square foot of new housing is almost exactly the same as it was in 1990. (This doesn't even take into account that mortgage rates are drastically lower since then.) We get skewed on this for two reasons. One is because h…

> Two is that we're highly skewed to a handful of elite metros, whose housing markets are not representative of the country as a whole Right, but what matters is the housing price where people are. It doesn't matter what the housing market looks like in South Dakota if I don't want to live there. While houses in South Dakota may be 1/10 the price of houses in NYC (likely cheaper, honestly), they also have 1/10 the po…

Clothing is a necessity, too.

Housing is a necessity, but a large detached house in a specific location, is not.

Re: The majority of 18- to 29-year-olds in the US are now living with their parents

#698
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in my mid fifties and I have never had a company pension, defined benefit or contribution. I saw my first house decline in value by 25%. We had interest rates peaking at 15%. I didn’t have student loans but only because I didn’t go to university, just like 90% of my peer group. Unemployment was much higher than it is now and schools were teaching subjects for obsolete careers. It wasn’t as rosey as it is often po…

I think you're missing how pervasive & broad the issues are these days. You mentioned you had a house. I'm fast approach the top 1-2% by income and think I can maybe swing a 1 bed apartment. It'll be borderline. Not house...apartment. ...no idea what the other 98% of my peers are doing but they sure as hell aren't buying houses. Meanwhile all the landlords I've rented from thus far where a generation older and had en…

Then you must be living in a really expensive city.

Re: The majority of 18- to 29-year-olds in the US are now living with their parents

#699
post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>YoY median home prices were up 13% nationally in August. That's a misleading statistic. It simply means that the houses getting sold has shifted towards the higher end of the market. If you look at the price for the same house it's gone up somewhere around 3% YoY.

So new construction only? And sorry, but in markets like mine, over the last year the average house has spent about 72 hours on the market and "the same house" has been sold multiple times in the last decade each time for approximately a 20% increase.

I think the low end of the market isn't selling due to economic insecurity. Also being pushed up by well off city folk moving to the burbs due to Covid.

Re: The majority of 18- to 29-year-olds in the US are now living with their parents

#700
post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also useful to note that the "nuclear family" is a very Western thing, and the US takes it to an extreme. In other parts of the world it's abnormal for adults in their 20s to be living anywhere but with their parents, often even with a fiance or new spouse in the mix. The idea that having a multi-generational household means that the younger members haven't "grown up" and need to "learn to live on their own" is…

Our mother in law is staying with us due to the unexpected passing of her husband, and we have been experiencing this first hand as we look for a shared home. Not only is there no multi-gen homes in our area (exurb an hour away from a major city) but it's difficult to find a layout where a part of the house can be a mini apartment or her own personal area. It seems like more basements are finished now and some of the…

Some regulators have different rulesets for 'temporary structures' (whose permanence can be fuzzy), for 'extensions' (whose connectedness can be limited), or 'renovations' (whose alteration vs. new-build can be gamed). Work the system. Worst case, put up a glamping tent and go neo-Mongol.
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