A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier • Hacker News Board

Re: A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier

#691

Post by bzbarsky » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

zhoujianfu wrote: post #528

bzbarsky wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to take the form of an annual tax refund. It could take the form of lower, or negative, paycheck withholdings. The hard part is making sure that people don't end up owing a bunch of money at tax time, of course, because they're not going to have it lying around.

Looks like we’re all talking about essentially UBI (Universal Basic Income) here... which I at least think is the solution to a lot of this!

There's a difference between UBI and something like EITC, in that UBI applies to all adults, whether working or not, whereas EITC is explicitly targeted at people who are employed but do not make what one would consider a "living wage" based on their situation (number of kids, etc).

Depending on the structure of the rest of the tax system and on whether the UBI phases out or not, the effective marginal tax rates can also be quite different, though this part can be massaged to make the two options look identical, I suspect.

But the core of the difference is whether employment is explicitly encouraged (EITC) or not (UBI).

Re: A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier

#692

Post by shrimpx » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 6:52 PM UTC

duelingjello wrote: post #619

shrimpx wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are generally reluctant to allow rich social benefits that aren't "earned". People who don't earn are called "lazy". In reality they're unable. They're unable because they lack access to good education starting very early in life. They lack access because their parents also lacked access, and nobody with access is willing to give these "lazy" people a "handout". This sharp (and sharpening) class divide is t…

Stockholm syndrome meets conditions tantamount to slavery. Americans don't know how bad they have it. And what's worse, the pervasive American fallacy of "suffering equals merit equals reward." Too many suffering slaves accuse the slaves in the house of being lazy, and vice-versa. A divided-and-conquered people who will also buy into partisan right/left nonsense rather than see their true, common enemy who has system…

In my view the divide is more subtle, something like the enlightened vs. the unenlightened. The general fallacy is that all poor people can rise to riches. But in reality only the "enlightened poor" are capable of doing this. The enlightened poor come from lineages that don't focus on money but maintain high standards for knowledge and ethics. The potential to rise is there. The unenlightened poor have fallen into vicious generational cycles where incapable parents breed incapable parents, simply because it's beyond their ability to see outside their box. To me, if there's any meaning to "social welfare", it's to break these cycles that breed incapable adults but there's little being done. Even Bernie, who makes a big fuss about education, is focusing on putting more kids in college. But by that time, for many people, it's way too late.

Re: A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier

#693

Post by danans » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

soulofmischief wrote: post #603

danans wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anecdotal example of how this could come to be without some fault in Brown's decision-making process? You've really never made 1 bad decision, or 10, in your life? I have plenty of bad decisions, total screwups even, in my history. Some of them were from being petulant, or naive. Some because I was depressed. Yet I'm a white collar educated professional, I'm part because I made some good decisions, and also because…

I make bad decisions every day. How does that have to do with anything? Ms. Brown has had 14 years to come up with a career trajectory. I don't think she has ever bothered in that time to visit a career consultant after realizing she couldn't figure it out on her own. Random fluctuations in decision quality average out over time to reveal a smooth function of decision-making prowess.

> I make bad decisions every day.

I'm not talking about daily bad decisions. I'm talking about things like: failing a college course needed for my degree program because of a bout of depression, but having parents who would pay for me to take the class again to pass it. I did that. A lot of people with professional parents have done that.

The poor and the working poor don't have that kind of safety net. The personal consequences of failure are far greater for them, and they experience those consequences at high rates, which one way they can get stuck in the rut of poverty for a long time.

Re: A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier

#694

Post by bradlys » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 7:10 PM UTC

oarsinsync wrote: post #648

soulofmischief wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody exists in a vacuum. You're arguing a strawman. You are introducing absolutes into a conversation which was purposefully framed as fluid. For example, I said most of the positive things. Your post is built upon the premise that I believe all positive things in my life came only from within, however you said the word only , not me. I am immensely privileged to have had the amount of support I have had. That's gr…

Apologies, I misread your statement, and my response was overly broad. This is my mistake. I may also have not been sufficiently clear in my messaging. I am talking from the perspective of someone born and raised in a "first world" western developed democracy similar in many ways to the USA (in this instance, the UK). > I am immensely privileged to have had the amount of support I have had. The intent here is to driv…

> My relative financial poverty during my upbringing doesn't change any of that. I still attribute my success to my upbringing. Not the (lack of) money, and not myself.

And some have neither money or the good upbringing. I was privileged enough to have parents who were able to keep a full-time job (even if it was a minimum wage one) most of my life. However, I would say mine were wildly poor on every other front. In terms of their own education, ability to parent, and most every other front beyond managing a positive bank account balance - they were poor. (Didn't stop my mother from racking up over $10,000 in credit card debt because she didn't know how they worked I guess)

I would align myself with soulofmischief in terms of the view on determination. It was purely my determination more than anything that lead me to getting to where I am now. (Beyond the basics like how I didn't grow in a war torn country where clean water was a scarcity) I've hit pretty much every setback a person in a first world country could give and persevered through it. Sometimes it taking years of incredible pain for any kind of payoff. I wouldn't attribute my success to my upbringing at all and neither would anyone who knows me even a little. Not being in abject poverty probably had some minor benefits for me but considering I had lived near that for the first 8-10 years of my life, I wouldn't consider it a huge amount of consequence. In fact - I thought those years were probably more pleasant than the later years! The only difference from going from near poverty to lower middle class was the age of the house since my parents didn't have any addictions besides nicotine and alcohol. (Alcoholism is ?probably? easier to deal with than an opioid addiction - but I only know the experience of dealing with the former combined with PTSD)

A little quote from a text I recently received: "You are exceptional to be where you are given where you came from. That said, the working class chip on your shoulder will hold you back from achieving what these people can achieve. You gotta get rid of that chip. (It's that chip and the behavior it causes that puts you on the edge of being fired. You aren't behaving the way these one percenters are behaving and they want to punish you for it.)"

My point is this: Don't underestimate determination. Upbringing in all forms is very important but a person with exceptional determination can overcome so much. It doesn't mean that it's fair or that it's even worth it but it's amazing how far someone can get with the refusal to give up. Something that I'd think people here on HN would be all about since this is owned by a startup incubator...

Re: A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier

#695

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #687

Spooky23 wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is McDonald's problem. They may need to look at the business and franchise model. They have a fubar business with hundreds of SKUs. 5 Guys is able to make money on a freshly cooked burger, higher standards for quality and higher cost. Make a "McDonald's Classic" concept that cooks real food at higher prices. Again, McDonald's makes a business decision to have a system that encourages franchisees to utilize labor…

So the people working for minimum wage would be better off if they didn’t have a job at all? If all of McDonalds employees all of the sudden were out of work - taxpayers would pay more. What’s the percentage of people that work at McDonalds are working there as a primary income? Isn’t kind of hypocritical that you criticize McDonald’s profitable business model but you’re okay with all of the startups - including ones…

I didn't criticize the business model. I said that I'm opposed to exploiting workers, and that addressing that problem is more important to me than preserving McDonald's present business model.

If their business model is not compatible with humane treatment and fair compensation of workers, why should we subsidize it? If the quality of McDonald's food is such that a small marginal cost increase will destroy the business, is it a good business?

Competition in the fast food space is intense, and market forces will drive prices. Perhaps the people who cannot afford a hamburger at Five Guys would be able to do so if paid a decent wage.

Re: A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier

#696

Post by sjy » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 8:03 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #503

ShinTakuya wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes according to classical economics it'd result in a decrease in demand. But the reality is that these shops need the workers regardless. Moreover with a minimum wage people have more disposable income to spend at these shops, which can sometimes create more jobs than the increased salary destroyed. Most studies that have been done on minimum wage found no correlation to unemployment rate. The economics you learned…

Pretty much all changes in minimum wages are small. This makes it very hard to measure the effect with any precision. You have to remember that wages are not 100% of the compensation for employees. So if MW increases from $10 to $10:50, fringe benefits may be cut from $2 to $1:50, and you end up with no measurable effect. > But the reality is that these shops need the workers regardless. If their expenses become high…

> If their expenses become higher than their earnings, the shops will close. Maybe that at least is an economic fact we can agree on?

Or they could raise their prices. That’s what normally happens in my experience when a small business faces an unavoidable and significant increase in one of its input costs.

Re: A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier

#697

Post by Sohcahtoa82 » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 8:04 PM UTC

im3w1l wrote: post #470

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in cybersecurity now, but worked retail for 7 years, fast food (Subway) for 6 years, and a ride op at a major theme park (Cedar Point) for 2 summers. If I could work the ride op or fast food jobs at my current salary, I'd take them in a heart beat. Hell, I might even take the ride op job for half the salary because the job could sometimes be a lot of fun. But retail? Hell no. You could offer me double my salar…

What if, to make it more interesting, we throw in the perk of having a cool boss that allows you to be rude back to customers?

That...I might really consider.

Re: A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier

#698

Post by sjy » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 8:11 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #659

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think access to capital is a mitigating factor. It doesn't really matter why you can't pay a wage that a worker can live on. If you can't do it you should go out of business.

So now people who are trying to make a living with a small business don’t deserve to be in business but tech bro’s who can convince people to invest billions in companies that will probably never be profitable should stay in business? Especially since we know that most venture funding goes to people who “pattern match” with Zuckerburg not the people who are running small businesses. Yeah that’s going to make the poor…

This is whataboutism. Believing that businesses who can’t afford to pay their staff a living wage shouldn’t exist doesn’t entail any position on the issue of unprofitable tech companies.

Re: A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier

#699

Post by RockIslandLine » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 8:15 PM UTC

soulofmischief wrote: post #601

iliketosleep wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The woman in question seems neither comfortable or complacent. She needs the money to pay for her day-to-day expenses and has a long commute. With her type of work experience, it would be difficult to find a more lucrative job. I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with her decision making process. She's simply been doing what is necessary to get by under difficult circumstances. I've met some capable an…

The sad truth is that some people simply just start off in a tough situation, work hard, and never get a lucky break. Your tone implies that I don't understand the disparity of the human condition. I lived my entire life very impoverished and at times homeless. I come from a very abusive household and grew up in a rural area with little prospects. I've never caught a break. I saw a way out, computers, and I took it.…

"I saw a way out, computers, and I took it. I was able to pivot to a better career by building skills in my free time."

So clearly, everyone can follow that same path, right?

Re: A Week in the Life of a McDonald’s Cashier

#700

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 8:16 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #695

scarface74 wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the people working for minimum wage would be better off if they didn’t have a job at all? If all of McDonalds employees all of the sudden were out of work - taxpayers would pay more. What’s the percentage of people that work at McDonalds are working there as a primary income? Isn’t kind of hypocritical that you criticize McDonald’s profitable business model but you’re okay with all of the startups - including ones…

I didn't criticize the business model. I said that I'm opposed to exploiting workers, and that addressing that problem is more important to me than preserving McDonald's present business model. If their business model is not compatible with humane treatment and fair compensation of workers, why should we subsidize it? If the quality of McDonald's food is such that a small marginal cost increase will destroy the busin…

The only reason that money losing startups “business model” works is because they don’t have to worry about silly things like profits. They are also being subsidized by VCs who are being subsidized in part by public pensions.

Maybe if we didn’t give special treatment to VCs Capital gains, many of the tech bro’s would also be out of a job. If we want to stop subsidizing bad business models let’s start with not allowing public pensions and tax free endowments the ability to invest in VC.