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SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

nytimes.com

691–700 of 959 posts

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#691
As someone who's somewhat ambivalent about race-based affirmative action (in short, I feel it's oversold at elite institutions and underused elsewhere) - a widespread adoption of something like this seems like an improvement over the status quo from the perspective of fairness. With that said, I don't think it will end up being used in this manner because fundamentally institutions are indifferent to your hardship and generally want the least fair process possible. At least as far as you can infer from their actions, top schools don't want students that overcame hardships. They want students that are likely to be successful. And given equal test scores, those that overcame more hardships are probably less likely to be successful, since they are likely to face more difficulties and less support in the future.

For example, if Harvard admitted purely by academics (assuming that a suitably hard version of SAT exists), they'd certainly have a student body that overcame more adversity they currently do. But they'd miss out on the likes of Jared Kushner who, despite low test scores, certainly had better career prospects than the average Harvard student. In reality top schools are generally looking for well-bred, well-rounded rich kids that are going to be successful no matter what. Everything about their process optimizes for this - relatively easy tests and low cutoffs, focus on extra-curricular and well-roundedness in general, ridiculous emphasis on sports no one without money would play, legacy preference, the list goes on. Admissions officers are even known to prefer more expensive extra-curricular activities - it's not about ability, it's not about effort, it's about interestingness and rarity, which are essentially synonymous with expensive.

Then to mask the fact that this is what their admissions process optimizes for, they just put the lipstick on the pig to make the result superficially palatable. This is where race-based affirmative action comes in - the whole holistic admissions process is fairly blatantly regressive, but somehow it's sold as a package deal with race-based affirmative action (it doesn't have to be) to put the critics on the defensive, as though they are the ones defending privilege. It's a fairly brilliant rhetorical technique, I must say. The holistic admissions process is primarily used to admit rich kids who aren't quite good enough academically over middle-class/poor kids who are great academically, but just have a hard time distinguishing themselves due to their chea, extra-curriculars that are available to far too many people to be interesting. But the fact that this process, combined with race-based affirmative action, yields a few more upper-middle class African immigrants and far fewer poor white and Asian kids, is apparently enough to give them the moral high ground.

They've done such an amazing job pushing this narrative that most people seem to think rich kids getting SAT tutoring is a big problem from a privilege perspective and de-emphasizing objective metrics is about leveling the playing field. It's the exact opposite - they want every excuse to admit the people that they think are going to be successful (and what better predicts success than growing up already successful?) and de-emphasizing objective metrics allows them to fill the entire class with mostly privileged people, without the riff-raffs that are academically good, but don't have the connections or the upbringing or the money to be successful.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#692
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said anything about Nazis? Top schools, Harvard in particular, have long tradition of discriminating against Jews.

That is just not true www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-racial-discrimination-at-harvard/

Regardless of the veracity of that article's data, which I do not care to check - you cannot post an article about Jewish overrepresentation in elite universities and disclaim the fact that the article was written by a Holocaust denier.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I give $5k dollars per year, for college, to every student in America whose parents make under $100k a year, am I denigrating the hard work of the parents who make more than that? No, you certainly are not. But this is completely different from adding a hidden adversity score to the SAT. Your proposal is equality of opportunity to earn merit. The other proposal is manipulation of outcome to negate merit.

Equal opportunity vs equal outcome is just a matter of perspective. If we take the desired outcome as can complete college then both proposals are attempting to provide equal opportunity. Declaring that one denigrates people while the other doesn't based solely on outcome vs opportunity requires arbitrarily picking an observation point that supports your view.

From any remotely objective view-point, a policy that chooses to add a hidden adversity score based on poverty, single-parenting and perceived hardship to a test that is designed as a measure of your scholastic ability is most certainly denigrating to folks who have chosen to lift themselves out of that adversity through experience of great adversity!

A policy that gives 5K to low-income families to allow their children to compete effectively on the SAT is not denigrating.

I firmly believe that if you pose this question to the world, a near complete majority of people will rule the latter is fair, the former is not. There is no arbitrary pick of an observation point here. These are two completely different policies.

And the first sentence is strange. If equal opportunity versus equal outcome is a merely a matter of perspective, then you can draw your lines even further! After all, whatever effects poverty and weaker education had on students in their ability to perform on the SAT certainly won’t have disappeared once they stroll across the campus green!

You can contribute the hidden adversity scores to course grades, contribute it to graduate honors, contribute it further to employment opportunity and promotion. You can draw your line at retirement and benefits if equal opportunity vs equal outcome is merely a matter of perspective.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#694

I think instead of trying to lower the bar for low income students, we should work on solving the actual problems causing them to perform more poorly on the SAT (or adjust the SAT so it is more representative of their actual skills). If students are accepted with a lower SAT score because of their background, they are likely going to struggle in University, since they have lower scores than the rest of their class, s…

How do you suggest solving a problem that comes down effectively to 'some people have more money and free time'? Not everyone can afford high quality tutoring, and high quality tutoring clearly has an impact on test scores.

Actively pushing and monitoring children's education has probably a lot more to do with academic success than free time. I am not aware that the asian minority has much more money and free time than anyone else.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you suggest solving a problem that comes down effectively to 'some people have more money and free time'? Not everyone can afford high quality tutoring, and high quality tutoring clearly has an impact on test scores.

>Not everyone can afford high quality tutoring, and high quality tutoring clearly has an impact on test scores. There are a number of organizations offering free online tutoring, such as https://learntobe.org . https://weteachscience.org used to provide free STEM tutoring to students in disadvantaged schools, but they recently shut down...I think it was difficult getting stable funding. There is no technical reason w…

> There is no technical reason why [...]

vs the article:

> “growing up in a neighborhood with less violence gives you advantages in your academic work.”

The score proposed is to adjust for societal issues, and technological solutions aren’t usually a good fit for those.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#696

As a reference: The Chinese equivalent, Gaokao [0], is notorious for its brutal difficulty, but also widely regarded [citation needed] as a great equalizer. To that end, high school students spend obscene amount of their class time doing test prep (yes, in school instead of after). Although YMMV, and the total score usually spreads out quite nicely without need for curving (one such attempt was recently made [1]; it…

I don't think it's true that the Gaokao is regarded as a great equalizer. You might be misled by the fact that it is regarded as the only potential path out of rural poverty in China - but even in the wikipedia article you link it discusses many of the issues with it. And this (2014) NYT opinion piece covers some in more detail (including that yes, richer students also spend time after school preparing). https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/opinion/sunday/chinas-edu...

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#697

The SAT itself has been shown to be a poor measure of performance in college when compared to high school GPA or the challenge level of the coursework offered [1]. Instead of trying to turn students into numbers, we should demand college admissions employees do their jobs and actually look at the applications. [1] http://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/What-Matters-M...

I read the study you linked and it did not say that the SAT was a poor measure of performance? What it did say was that in isolation, the SAT score was worse than GPA, but the overall best predictor was a combination of SAT and GPA.

I think this agrees with other studies about hiring, FWIW, where, as I understand, the best way to measure somebody's ability is a work-sample plus an IQ test. As someone who has been involved in hiring, we crudely approximate this by looking at work experience and how selective somebody's college education was.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#698
post #135

> The score would not be reported to the student, only to college officials. This seems really sketchy. I mean, I can completely understand why the College Board would want to avoid blowback from students knowing their scores, but their convenience seems like insufficient cause to deny students access to their own information.

If this score is to replace the current college admission weighting, wouldn’t it be logical for it to have the same opacity from the student ?

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think students get to check their college admission evaluation results.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#699
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already talked to my wife about this. I would retire, we would divorce, and I would rent a shitty apartment in East Palo Alto all the while living in our house. If they think they can boil my kids into a single number without bothering to find the context of who my kids are then I will game it to as much as possible. I don’t know why my family should be punished because my wife and I worked our asses off to get ahe…

Choosing to get a fake divorce so that you can game the system as much as possible isn't punishment; it's probably fraud. You could also choose to relax and let your children enjoy all the other benefits of a great upbringing, and accept that "the children of hardworking parents should be more likely to be admitted" isn't a design goal of the admissions system.

It's not fraud to divorce. People can live whatever way they want. It is merely arbitraging a bad metric.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#700
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Asian myself. There has never really been a place for us on either side of the political spectrum. The left does not treat us as they do with other minorities, so they don't care about screwing us over while the right generally only uses us to pretend that they care about minorities to appeal to centrists/other. While the right's policies may benefit us a bit, culturally the right will be just as happy to screw…

Most Asians I know are very well educated and doing well. I bet they are probably much better off compared to other minorities in the US. When I was doing PhD 90% of my classmates were Chinese. I think it is a bit of a stretch to to say Asians are completely getting screwed in the US.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to make any sort of conclusion based on your sampling of PhD students.
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