The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#691

Post by newobj » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:39 PM UTC

heyoni wrote: post #675

timr wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I spent two days implementing a typeahead search results system for Etsy, including writing my own ingestion pipeline, map-reduce framework, index builder, and request processor." Seriously? You did all of that? For a take-home interview problem?? Oy. This is why companies get away with this crap... I'm going to say something harsh, but you really need to hear it: you failed at your number one responsibilty. It does…

Yep, that’s what I needed to hear. I’m really glad I retracted my resume. Even though I’m nowhere OP’s level, it felt a bit degrading.

If you're capable of developing software, being offered $15/hr /even without any interview at all/ is just broken. This is not about the interview process, that's just an old fashioned screwjob. I'm really confused by your situation. What are your qualifications and seriously what kind of compensation are you receiving right now if you are employed? If you want to talk, email me at my username at gmail.

To put things into perspective, I made $30/hr 23 YEARS AGO as a summer intern (coding) in my hometown city's IT department. In an "inland" state. Not even at a monied startup. This was before the dotcom boom, and it was a "government job", which never pay as well as private work.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#692

Post by sudosteph » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:41 PM UTC

zaidf wrote: post #441

I wish companies would figure out a way to have their best engineers do blind-shopper-style interviews where they regularly see if their best engineers would be able to make it through their current interview process. This can be tricky to implement but if done right, would provide lots of insight into the types of candidates their interview process is geared to pass. I asked a friend who worked for years at a large…

That reminds me. At Amazon there was a concept called "raising the bar" that was applied during interviews and promotions. The idea was that you should only hire or promote people with the capacity to do the job better than 50% of the people already doing it.

I often wondered how sustainable that was. Will be interesting to see if they keep that strategy long-term.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#693

Post by user5994461 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:43 PM UTC

trowawee wrote: post #343

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at other fields for examples. Few have to interview like devs do. Other professionals may have continuing education like conferences, but that's not the same. Imagine nurses or docs getting asked to take vitals for an interview.

I mean, programmers also don't go through a medical school equivalent or residency. We don't take boards. I'm married to a doctor and we were together through her time in medical school and residency. If I had to choose between skill checks in the interviewing process and the 8 grueling years of hell that was med school and residency, I will take option 1 without a second of consideration.

There are developers who went through a master or PhD at a top school, with a similar difficulty and debt to medical school.

There are companies who will only hire you if you got a degree and relevant experience. The big tech companies never mention it but most of the workforce had a long education.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#694

Post by dylan-m » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:45 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #642

maxk42 wrote: post #580

This literally happened to me last week. On a Friday night before my girlfriend's birthday they sent me -- without warning -- an assignment that "should take about 8 hours". I told them to give the job to someone hungrier than me which was the politest way of telling someone to stuff it I could think of. The company in question advertises here on HN's "Who's hiring?" threads, but the role was brought to my attention…

This is the format at almost every single company these days. 1. Initial phone screen with recuriter - 30 mins 2. Phone screen(s) - 1-4 hr 3. (optional) phone live-coding on coderpad - 1 hr 4. Take home assignment - 4 - 8 hrs 5. Full Day onsite interview - 2-3 days if traveling. Rinse and Repeat for atleast ten interviews minimum you are looking at almost 1 month of pure interview time. Add on practise time for algor…

This is fed by a weird delusion amidst tech people that all their problems (including hiring employees) are somehow incredibly unique, and that they occupy some special magical world that nobody else has ever dealt with before, and they're so smart for figuring it out. But the fact is they just suck at hiring people, and they should look around and think about how everyone else does it. There are plenty of fields where hiring the right person is serious business, and they seem to get on just fine with considerably less bullshit than this.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#695

Post by irq11 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:47 PM UTC

lazyasciiart wrote: post #601

irq11 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other option is to check references, do credential checks, and simple bullshit screens during interviews, like every other professional interview. Literally every other profession has this challenge! Programmers are unique only in their seeming inability to realize that they are not unique. Accountants are not asked to solve double-entry accounting whiteboard problems. Finance professionals are not given take-hom…

Every accountant attending an interview can produce a certificate from an accredited national group saying that they have taken an in-person, proctored exam on double-entry accounting, which is the 'credentials check' you refer to. There's nothing like it for programmers.

And? You think that a certification exam provides more evidence than a university degree? (which, let’s face it, most programmers have).

No, this is a made-up difficulty, caused by the fact that programmers think there’s a silver bullet solution to evaluating competency in an “objective” manner.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#696

Post by nvarsj » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:50 PM UTC

poulsbohemian wrote: post #393

monocasa wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to hate it, but have now performed enough interviews of supposedly senior devs with decades of experience. I've literally seen someone who did firmware for the space shuttle grind for 45 minutes on fizz buzz without making progress. Like, I'd they struggle for ten minutes or so, I take a step back and say "Ok, screw syntax, let's just vaguely talk about what needs to happen and mock up some pseudo code.". Even…

I’m going to show some vulnerability… this happened to me this week. I’m probably like a lot of you here: professional software developer for 20 years, have shipped countless products in multiple languages / technologies. Work has appeared on tv and print media multiple times. Have generated millions and millions in cost savings and revenue for employers and clients. But I totally failed a technical screen. It’s been…

Only way to code under pressure like that is with practice. I turn into an idiot non-coder in these situations, but I've gotten much better over time, to where I always pass a live coding session. In the real world, I spend a fair amount of time thinking and teasing a problem apart before I actually start coding. This is hard to do in an interview - even if the interviewer says "think about it for a few minutes", they will inevitably step in and offer a suggestion after 30s of silence. It's like you have to code by pure instinct. Which is doable with practice. But it's hugely skewed towards people who have the time or desire to practice such things.

This is why advice for passing the Google/etc. interview usually boils down to: Quit your job for a month and do competitive coding, and you will pass with ease.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#697

Post by newobj » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:54 PM UTC

wpasc wrote: post #684

newobj wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, if you can't land, say, 1 out of 3 interviews, there is a systemic personal problem, not just a bad day, and "the problem is u" -- sadly you will just need to work harder because something in your skill set is not up to snuff.

I agreed with your main post, but landing 1 out of 3 interviews? I know several people who got offers at both Facebook and Google out of school who did not hit a 1 out of 3 ratio of offers to interviews

Ok. It was a SWAG. My point being that a systemic failure to land a coding job is a problem with you, not the interview process(es).

My sentiment in my original reply is that I hear a lot of complaining about "i was asked to code binary search" interviews, which seems to come with an implicit but unstated "...and i failed to code binary search, therefore it is bullshit" statement attached to it. Somehow I feel like if it ended with "and I coded binary search because I can generally code on-demand or because I specifically practiced it, and I got the job!" -- like there would be less complaining happening...

I mean, people don't wanna do whiteboard coding ("it's not realistic"), they don't wanna do take-home coding ("it's too much work") ... are people willing to do ANYTHING to get a dev job?

I've seen a situation where the person literally refused to do an interview, just stated their desired comp, take it or leave it. Are you fucking kidding me?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#698

Post by profalseidol » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:54 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #250

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

I used to hate it, but have now performed enough interviews of supposedly senior devs with decades of experience. I've literally seen someone who did firmware for the space shuttle grind for 45 minutes on fizz buzz without making progress. Like, I'd they struggle for ten minutes or so, I take a step back and say "Ok, screw syntax, let's just vaguely talk about what needs to happen and mock up some pseudo code.". Even…

How did he do the firmware of the space shuttle without knowing such basic coding?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#699

Post by newobj » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:54 PM UTC

leepowers wrote: post #579

newobj wrote: post #301

It's unreal that will people will bitch and moan about having to invest a couple days, maybe even a whole week in cramming/prepping/interviewing, to perform on-demand, one time, for a job that realistically will earn them $100k, $200k, $300k, $400k+ a year. Meanwhile people that work harder than us 5 days a week for the entire duration of their career will make 1/2, 1/4, 1/6th, or less of income, with none of the per…

I agree the investment of time is worth it when you have a strong expectation of landing a high-paying job. That's one caveat to consider. Another: as long as the take-home test comes _later_ in the process, after a more traditional interview, when the company and interviewee have had a chance to evaluate each other.

Agreed, absolutely.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#700

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

rhapsodic wrote: post #307

minimaxir wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In disclosure, all the companies were upfront about the full interview process. That said, in this job market, there isn't much leverage to say no to a prospective job or to make demands of the interview process unless you're already a rockstar.

>That said, in this job market, there isn't much leverage to say no to a prospective job or to make demands of the interview process unless you're already a rockstar. I don't consider myself a rockstar, or even a prima donna type who would make "demands" of the interview process. But I'm confident I could find a job fairly quickly without jumping through ridiculous hoops just to get an initial response from a company…

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