Live data from Hacker News

Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

backreaction.blogspot.com

691–700 of 872 posts

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony is that all the things you argue against him for, his small worldview, not willing to come to his senses, are what you are doing yourself. You are kicking and screaming against anything that upsets your viewpoint on this issue. And we actually agree on the most important facet (as do most people) that any discrimination based on age, gender, or race is absolutely not tolerated. But how to achieve this in th…

> You are kicking and screaming against anything that upsets your viewpoint on this issue. Interesting. So in this case I shouldn't debate anyone here. Because somehow that makes me wrong because... By not agreeing my worldview is small? > that any discrimination based on age, gender, or race is absolutely not tolerated. Honestly, I genuinely do not believe that many people here believe this. I think they find excuse…

> Interesting. So in this case I shouldn't debate anyone here. Because somehow that makes me wrong because... By not agreeing my worldview is small?

"forgive these men their outrageously outdated and somewhat dehumanizing viewpoints and calmly explain to them that currently they are benefitting from a system called patriarchy that has normalized male dominance" doesn't sound like you're open to a debate, it sounds like you are highly certain that your opinion is correct, full stop.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#692
An interesting article, but I was baffled by this line:

'The bigger mistake in Damore’s memo is one I see frequently: Assuming that job skills and performance can be deduced from differences among demographic groups.'

From my understanding, Damore does not argue this. Instead, he argues that job skill and performances in groups might be deduced from differences in demographic groups. I don't recall Damore every claiming that differences in a group make an individual less skilled.

I think this confusion arises from a misunderstanding of Damore's argument flow, which goes something like this:

1. Women as a group tend to be interested in things other than programming, so there are fewer female programmers overall relative to their population.

2. Because there are fewer female programmers, there are fewer female programmers applying to google.

3. The distribution of skills in the population of female programmers that apply to google is identical to the distribution of skills to the male programmers that apply to Google. (This is an important assumption that we don't have a lot of data for)

4. Google wishes to hire women in proportion to their representation in the general population (looots of anecdotal support for this point).

Conclusion: Google hires a larger percentage of their female applicant than their male applicants. Because of point 3, they will end up hiring more low skilled females than males[1].

You'll notice that a lot hinges on point 3. There is some data to suggest that women self select much more when applying to a job than men do, thus it's possible that the distribution of female engineers applying to google is either more high skilled, or the distribution is right shifted, than the distribution of skills among male engineers. If this shift was big enough, google would not require special considerations in order to hire a larger percentage of female, than male applicants. Since Google's discriminatory hiring practices are one of the worst kept secrets in the tech industry, it's unlikely that the skill distribution among female applicants is that skewed, though there is very likely some skew.

Point 1 is interesting because it suggests that the fundamental problem is not Google's fault so it can't be fixed by Google's hiring or retention practices. Even if point 1 is actually "Women as a group are discouraged from being programmers therefore there are fewer female programmers", it still puts the problem squarely outside Google's hiring and retention practices.

[1]The actual error being made here is much more complex. Since hiring is an error prone process, a certain percentage of unsuitable candidates will be hired. Since there are so many more men hired by Google than women, even lacking any positive discrimination in favor of women, there will be far more low skilled men hired than low skilled women. What would actually happen is that the error rate for hiring low skilled candidates would be much higher for women than for men. Absent any other intervention, this could lead to a lower retention rate for female hires as managers realize that their skills are not up to par. Thus Google also introduces a plethora of retention programs designed to raise the skill level of the female engineers.

Note that these low skilled female hires are not low skilled because they are women, but they are low skilled because Google was less stringent while hiring them. This argument is not sufficient to say if a particular female engineered is low skilled, only that if you were to evaluate and group the skills of all the female and male developers, the female skill distribution would have a larger left tail than the male left tail. Thus for a given female engineer, they are more likely to be low skilled, despite the fact that you will almost certainly meet more low skilled male engineers.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#693

Let me present a walmart associate opinion on the person that was fired. Tldr - sometimes really smart people do the dumbest things. Where was his common sense? For the average associate i know the overarching Question would be did he not know he could be fired? "I would have loved to go to college. I couldn't afford it. Id love to have a job at Google. He probably makes over one hundred thousand dollars. All those y…

That's underestimating his common sense:

- The guy just maximized his chances of being hired at a company that selects for skills, hereby surrounding himself with the most competent.

- He was obviously discriminated at Google (otherwise he wouldn't discuss diversity), so Google had already destroyed his career. That's the problem with discrimination: Victims have nothing to lose.

- He just became the leader for millions of males who are currently struggling with discrimination.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#694
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether we agree with the memo or not, there was a very good point that guy made and that we should keep in mind, it's the paragraph with the two overlapping distributions. Even if you admit that all genders, races, any way you want to segment the population, do not have the same distribution, that doesn't mean anything to a person as an individual. For instance I think it's fair to say that black people are better a…

This ignores the fact that countries like Jamaica recruit their best athletes into track and field, whereas Australia or China would push those kids into something else. A more accurate statement would be black countries have better track and field coaching infrastructure considering Usain Bolt routinely washed out of race finals until he was picked up by pro coaching staff. It's the same reason Canada usually wins t…

For certain sports, it is in fact mostly genetics:

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/08/14/kenyans-sweep-...

It's interesting how introducing certain attributes into a conversation can disable parts of the human brain, I wonder if a study has ever been done on this.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it disturbing that somebody would even consider switching to the alt-right over this. Do people not have deeply-held beliefs anymore? Personally, that is a line that I would never , under any circumstance, cross, even if I was the one who got fired and blacklisted. It is a non-negotiable position.

This one I can reply: I am someone that don't like feminism (but I won't discuss that now). My political position is kinda anti-authoritarian, and I don't trust corporations, early on my life it was considered left, people would call me anarquist or socialist. After a while people started to call me liberal, libertarian and minarquist, and call me "right" And now with the popularity of the term alt-right, I get calle…

I believe there are two important reasons two to listen to people with opposing or extreme positions.

1 - Those oppinions _may_ have a single grain of truth. And, as reasonable beings, we cannot allow that truth to be buried or silenced.

2 - Regardless os the validity or truthfullness of that opinion, we should try to understand _why_ that person holds those opinions. This helps us understand why and how some ideas and opinions still persist to this day.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this happened because it seems he accidentally presented himself to the outside world as alt-right. You'd only know he was a right libertarian (my impression at least) if you regularly listened to him. For example, Look at his Wikipedia article vs his /r/politics AMA. His Wikipedia article paints him as alt-right, because all of his major accomplishments that reach outside the audience are hyper-focused o…

> I feel like this happened because it seems he accidentally presented himself to the outside world as alt-right. I would love for you to find one place Ben Shapiro presents as alt-right. > His Wikipedia article paints him as alt-right of course it does, Conservatives of all stripes have been complaining about the bias of Wikipedia for some time. It paints anyone who is sorta conservative as alt-right. If you believe…

You can complain about Wikipedia, but you missed the point of me mentioning it. Here's a question I want answered because otherwise he might as well present as such:

Do you think the Wikipedia page is missing anything important he's done? Specifically anything of note that has to do with the free market.

Otherwise, its basically a "just one goat" situation, except he done like 7 goats. the day to day things are just not gonna stick out as much as the big things so what he says on his podcast isn't enough to change that perception.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#697
Just because there is science and studies that indicate that women and men are "X", on average, it does not mean you can immediately dismiss people's grievances with the fact that some people are under-represented in one area or another.

My wife certainly does not fall under what the studies would deem a woman to be on average (nor that of which the author of the blog describes). Therefore, she would most definitely protest any notion that the reason why she is not "X" is due to her biology and scientific studies and take issue with anyone in the workplace trying to frame her current position as "she is in that job role due to her biology."

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This one I can reply: I am someone that don't like feminism (but I won't discuss that now). My political position is kinda anti-authoritarian, and I don't trust corporations, early on my life it was considered left, people would call me anarquist or socialist. After a while people started to call me liberal, libertarian and minarquist, and call me "right" And now with the popularity of the term alt-right, I get calle…

I believe there are two important reasons two to listen to people with opposing or extreme positions. 1 - Those oppinions _may_ have a single grain of truth. And, as reasonable beings, we cannot allow that truth to be buried or silenced. 2 - Regardless os the validity or truthfullness of that opinion, we should try to understand _why_ that person holds those opinions. This helps us understand why and how some ideas a…

Re 2: And maybe how to explain it to them in a way that can make them actually reconsider.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only time I was ever asked about politics by a potential employer I noped out of that situation. Workplace = Professional, Personal Shit Stays Home. Rest of Life = Do whatever the fuck you want as long as its legal and you don't mention your day job. I'm not sure why this separation isn't standard practice for everyone.

That's my practice, for sure. Enforced through compartmentalization and online anonymity.

Yup. Its not perfect tho, I'm sure I have enough cracks in my setup that people can find out if they really try but its enough people should understand its not related to my job and leave it alone I'd hope.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#700
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only time I was ever asked about politics by a potential employer I noped out of that situation. Workplace = Professional, Personal Shit Stays Home. Rest of Life = Do whatever the fuck you want as long as its legal and you don't mention your day job. I'm not sure why this separation isn't standard practice for everyone.

It was, then the social justice movement decided that companies should be political and that they should take an active role in promoting their political positions. Some on the other side did as well (what sort of cakes they had to make). This is the obvious and predictable blowback that has come from companies becoming political.

> It was, then the social justice movement decided that companies should be political and that they should take an active role in promoting their political positions. Some on the other side did as well (what sort of cakes they had to make). This is the obvious and predictable blowback that has come from companies becoming political.

It isn't just the SJWs. Conservatives have called for being fired for offending them ever since talk radio was a thing. We got bought by a company HQ'd in the bible belt and the opposite chilling effect was pretty obvious as people who spoke their mind about a few issues that were politically sensitive got fired.

We are just more polarized now and people are less tolerant of any kind of difference.

Post reply on HN