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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#681

Post by pdimitar »

makeitdouble wrote: post #680
pdimitar wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point me at a laptop as small and quiet. Hell, let's forget weight. I'll gladly lug around 2.5kg machine if it almost never turns its fan on and is as compact. Actually let's not care about compactness either. Can go up to 17". Just show me a truly quiet laptop. You are misjudging me here. I'm moving back to Linux after using Macs for 7 years. My desktop Mac is soon going to be history. macOS makes too many choices f…

We could do the same exercise in reverse: Point me at a laptop with a touch and pen support and detachable keyboard, within the 13" range and 260+ppi resolution, that can virtually run modern software and mid-tier games at workable speeds. That's the bar my personal laptop clears, and no mac does. Should I be claiming that it has unbeatable hardware ? PS: We've been in this for a very long time. Even during the Power…

Sure but that's only a theoretical, as in, a non-existing argument. You don't get to tell me what I want in a laptop; I already stated it and stand by it.

"Unbeatable" comes from "satisfies all my hardware requirements". If you want to be difficult and try to grill me to append "...according to what I deem an important criteria" at the end of each sentence then that's a separate conversation, and one I'll refuse to have.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#682

Post by fivetomidnight »

_hyn3 wrote: post #186
fivetomidnight wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could get 4 Lenovo X280 if you just need an overpowered notepad.

Yeah, or a Macbook Neo! No need to disparage other people's use cases.

Fair, vendor lock-in doesn't matter when it's a notepad.

But that's still 3 X280s if all you need an overpowered notepad. It's my daily driver for exactly that use case, so no disparage there.

And it's still overpowered for that. But it's so tiny...

Also don't buy new if it's not for (critical) business, I want to add.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#683

Post by [deleted] »

wwalexander wrote: post #460
thefossguy69 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest papercut preventing me from being productive on macOS is it's horrible window management which cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts like one does in WMs like bspwm and others on Linux and that absolutely insane ~500 ms delay in setting the focused window when moving between virtual desktops. For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time.…

> cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i... You can define additional shortcuts in Keyboard settings: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-keyboard-sho...

[deleted]

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#684

Post by makeitdouble »

pdimitar wrote: post #681
makeitdouble wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could do the same exercise in reverse: Point me at a laptop with a touch and pen support and detachable keyboard, within the 13" range and 260+ppi resolution, that can virtually run modern software and mid-tier games at workable speeds. That's the bar my personal laptop clears, and no mac does. Should I be claiming that it has unbeatable hardware ? PS: We've been in this for a very long time. Even during the Power…

Sure but that's only a theoretical, as in, a non-existing argument. You don't get to tell me what I want in a laptop; I already stated it and stand by it. "Unbeatable" comes from "satisfies all my hardware requirements". If you want to be difficult and try to grill me to append "...according to what I deem an important criteria" at the end of each sentence then that's a separate conversation, and one I'll refuse to h…

"the Neo is competitive for basic office and media stuff" can be a better way to put it. I'd say the Surface Pro is a more competent but pricier jack of all trade.

There's so many ways to express the same points with not much more words. Especially when the article is about a machine that is a completely different league from the Neo.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#685

Post by pdimitar »

makeitdouble wrote: post #684
pdimitar wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but that's only a theoretical, as in, a non-existing argument. You don't get to tell me what I want in a laptop; I already stated it and stand by it. "Unbeatable" comes from "satisfies all my hardware requirements". If you want to be difficult and try to grill me to append "...according to what I deem an important criteria" at the end of each sentence then that's a separate conversation, and one I'll refuse to h…

"the Neo is competitive for basic office and media stuff" can be a better way to put it. I'd say the Surface Pro is a more competent but pricier jack of all trade. There's so many ways to express the same points with not much more words. Especially when the article is about a machine that is a completely different league from the Neo.

> "the Neo is competitive for basic office and media stuff" can be a better way to put it.

Agreed in general, though in my case it would be something like this:

"The Neo is a great thin client through which you can hop around your entire infrastructure and work remotely in it, through the Neo."

Because that is my use-case for it. Travel but not having to work on a machine with 8GB RAM.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#686

Post by ryukoposting »

pdimitar wrote: post #673
ryukoposting wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never bought a new laptop in my life, and I have a Framework 13 Pro on preorder because it's the only new laptop I will ever need to buy. When I did my research, I found that Framework costs more than the competition across the entire stack, but it's by a fixed amount, $150 give or take. That's maybe a 7% premium for a high-end laptop, but a 30% premium at the low end. Obviously the price gap vs a Neo is even wi…

That's completely fair and that would be my process exactly, if not for one thing -- fan noise. I really _hate_ laptop fan noises. That's why a Macbook Neo will win for me when I get to travel more. Hopefully the world will produce a good competition for it in the meantime.

That's fair, we all have our preferences. Each vendor has "their feature" that drives sales, for sure. Neo has the "I hate fan noise" crowd. Lenovo has the "I like the pointer nub" crowd. Dell has the... uh... well they have that secure boot thing.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#687

Post by OJFord »

OJFord wrote: post #521
rmunn wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just one datapoint, but my Framework 16 (bought a little over a year ago with no OS, has only ever had Linux installed on it) has never given me trouble with firmware updates. I've updated the BIOS twice, and other firmware, all through `fwupdmgr` with no issues. I bought the AMD chip rather than Intel, it's possible that that was why I had no issues, but I don't actually know.

I'd call that pretty recent :) – fwupdmgr wasn't supported (not as in 'you're on your own', but 'blobs not published to registry') until a few years ago. EFI shell update wasn't available early on. When I say I'm trying to, I'm actually struggling to establish if it's even possible without at least using Windows to jump to a certain version after which I can use EFI/fwupdmgr.

I do really like Framework the company, and my laptop, even as I wrote the above comments – so just want to note in the thread that I did get it sorted; my OG pre-order 11th gen Intel 13" is now on (latest at time of writing) the v3.24 BIOS, without Windows ever having been anywhere near it. :)

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#688

Post by cromka »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #663
cromka wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Combined with systemd-oomd That's my whole point: on Linux a process gets killed to prevent a system lock up if you're about to run out of memory or swap. That never happens on macOS, as long as you have some SSD left, period.

That’s not what I want (rogue program swapping until disk full), nor do I think most people want. Current zswap+oomd behavior is the best choice imho.

> (rogue program swapping until disk full)

OMG why do you keep on insisting on this? The point is you can run as many apps in the background and at no point will they get OOM-ed. This isn't about a rougue app, this is actually a very obscure reason to run out of memory! I get OOMed weekly on Asahi with 16GB only because my Brave/Chromium session grows too big. THIS NEVER HAPPENS ON MACOS.

> Current zswap+oomd behavior is the best choice imho

This isn't up for debate, Linux memory management is less advanced. How about you actually read up on the advantages of how macOS handles the memory and stop the speculation OK?

EOT here.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#689

Post by eduction »

Aurornis wrote: post #22
eduction wrote: post #10

If you're not willing to pay a 20% premium for upgradability/fixability, then you don't _really_ want it. And that's fine! The Neo is an example of how this tradeoff should work: You lose flexibility but gain a lower price. For other Apple laptops, the price is on the high end and also you lose flexibility. This seeming contradiction is what helped open up the market opportunity for Framework. (To complicate my argum…

> If you're not willing to pay a 20% premium for upgradability/fixability, then you don't _really_ want it. And that's fine! $799 versus $499 is a 60% premium. The best case numbers are buying used RAM and SSD for the Framework like Jeff did in the article ($749 total, if you can find the RAM at those prices) and comparing against the non-EDU MacBook Neo at $599. That's still a 25% premium.

Original article: "The problem is, for an overall worse experience, are you willing to pay 20-40% more?"

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#690

Post by eduction »

eduction wrote: post #689
Aurornis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're not willing to pay a 20% premium for upgradability/fixability, then you don't _really_ want it. And that's fine! $799 versus $499 is a 60% premium. The best case numbers are buying used RAM and SSD for the Framework like Jeff did in the article ($749 total, if you can find the RAM at those prices) and comparing against the non-EDU MacBook Neo at $599. That's still a 25% premium.

Original article: "The problem is, for an overall worse experience, are you willing to pay 20-40% more?"

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