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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

latimes.com

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#681

Post by rowanG077 »

wink wrote: post #646
dmbche wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I may, people write (with pens) slower than than can speak, and thus to take good notes you need to synthesize the material you are being explained. You need to understand what you're writing. Many people can type as fast/faster than they talk, and when typing it is possible to try and type verbatim what is being said. In this case, there is no understanding. (If you've ever taken a class not all that is said is p…

I highly doubt this is unique. Some teachers (at least when I was in school) said stuff, repeated it, no problem writing it verbatim. Some others put it on the board for you to copy it verbatim, and later in uni.. most people definitely did not type fast enough to capture every word. Writing down stuff has always been what you make of it.

Just because there arepeople who type slow doesnt invalidate the point that typing has a much higher speed ceiling. It's like saying well cars can go slower than some people who walk. So we may as well walk everywhere.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#682

Post by [deleted] »

retrac wrote: post #252
hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

It's so strange to see this happen in the USA when our education system up here in Canada has essentially the same set of cultural and social values and there's plenty to gripe about but we haven't had the 'levelling' thing. There have been attempts but it has strongly resisted by parents. [1] I think there may be more realization up here that "gifted education" is a type of "special" education, in the same way remed…

[deleted]

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#683

Post by Glyptodon »

So just to be clear, I guess the issue isn't so much SAT or placement tests as it is that there's no functional baseline level of knowledge without some kind of entry exam, and without that there's no functional boundary on the starting place or length of time it will take to get a degree. So some level of entry exam is needed to avoid rebuilding a new remedial version of K12 education inside of every four year college?

I think the focus on the SAT as a mechanism for this detracts from this as the SAT isn't really an designed to sus out topical placement, right?

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#684

Post by confidantlake »

tstrimple wrote: post #644
confidantlake wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most important factor isn't the schools, it is the kids themselves.

No. It's largely the environment that the parents create. Which is why the equity vs equality arguments are bullshit. If I can afford to hire the best tutors for my children and sign them up for summer classes as well, is it really "equal" when they dominate the tests and edge out other kids from opportunities? No. It's because of my financial situation and the opportunities we're able to afford and willing to sign t…

No one in my friend group got any SAT tutoring yet the worst person was still 95 percentile. The tutoring argument is overblown. Testing is one of the great equalizers. Us nobody suburban kids had just as much of a chance as the rich prep school kids. Despite the fancy tutors we still outscored them.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#685

Post by J37T3R »

Glyptodon wrote: post #683

So just to be clear, I guess the issue isn't so much SAT or placement tests as it is that there's no functional baseline level of knowledge without some kind of entry exam, and without that there's no functional boundary on the starting place or length of time it will take to get a degree. So some level of entry exam is needed to avoid rebuilding a new remedial version of K12 education inside of every four year colle…

It's at least a standard, and that's the important part. Narrow down what exactly the best way to tell is later, the SAT fits the bill of good enough to re-impliment quickly.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#686

Post by verteu »

jrflo wrote: post #266

It's weird to me that standardized tests were demonized as anti-equity rather than GPA. You can always get extra help with homework, projects, etc. if you have a better funded support system. Single subject/unit tests in high school are also much more narrow in scope and easier to prepare for. A standardized test on the other hand is so wide in breadth that raw abilities will shine more.

> It's weird to me that standardized tests were demonized as anti-equity rather than GPA

I think it's because socioeconomic status is much more correlated with tests (40% of variance explained) than grades (https://cshe.berkeley.edu/news/family-background-accounts-40...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qeeeGJ4100oM-mK0g-1Z34VqEaF...

I'm surprised the correlation between SES and grades is so low.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#688

Post by fsckboy »

the SAT is an IQ test, btw. who would have thought that could lead to better results in cognitive fields? shocked. shocked!

Now that there is some grudgin recognition of this idea, it might do to remind people that high SAT scores on Verbal are correlated, and salient in non STEM subjects.

and that there is no known way to increase scores significantly, neither from early intervention nor sustained practice. And, depressingly from an egalitarian perspective, there is a strong genetic correlation.

You could read more about the measured statistics, the "mainstream science on intelligence" and "bell curve"s, but sadly the scientists studying it have been cancelled by people who did not like the results.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#689

Post by hgoel »

mlsu wrote: post #62
kleiba2 wrote: post #28

I used to teach high school math. There was a big push for doing everything digitally. And admittedly, for some topics the use of technology in the classroom or at home can really be a benefit, for instance visualizations or interactive exercises. But having a digital device in class was the number one cause of distraction every time. For a lot of things, good old blackboards are just fine as are pen + paper exercise…

It’s definitely actively bad to involve a device in the vast majority of education. And, it’s a purely selfish thing by tech companies to insert themselves into education. A student should not see a computer until college or vocational school unless they are taking e.g a high school programming or electronics class.

I can already tell that you would've been the equivalent of the adults that made life hell for me as a teen with their awful heavy handed opinions and interjections.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#690

Post by kyboren »

ryandamm wrote: post #662
kyboren wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the reality in California is that the state level funding is poor No, it really isn't. Again, just mandated Prop 98 state spending on K-12 is $127.1B for next year, with this year's enrollment at just about 5.8 million students. That works out to $21k per pupil not including all discretionary state spending, federal spending, and other local funding (like the fundraising you're talking about). > districts that are…

Well I live in a basic aid district; Bay Area but firmly middle class. We’re just above the cutoff for federally subsidized school lunches iirc, and the schools are chronically short on money. Part of it is declining enrollment, part of it is Baumol’s cost disease (a living wage is pretty high here! Teachers get paid well on a national scale and very poorly on a local scale). But yeah… education is simply not well-ru…

Your situation is a good argument against the equity-focused LCFF. It's such a HCOL area that despite having high property tax revenue vs. the rest of the state, your district really should be funded at a higher level. Unfortunately I have little hope of Californians abandoning their zeal for punitive equity any time soon.

It is indeed indisputable that education is not well-run here. But it's not going to be easy to fix. For starters, nearly 100% of the people I talk to about this issue believe, like you, that the problem is Prop 13 and underfunded schools. I don't know where this idea came from but it's remarkably pervasive and consistent across demographics.

But the biggest problem IMO is that the education administration mafia has a stranglehold on our one-party state and things are broken just the way they like it.

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