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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#681

Post by space_fountain »

remarkEon wrote: post #628
bit-anarchist wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not what they said.

Yes it is. Note the parenthetical. >(To avoid perverse incentives, though, the HRT requirement is critical. Otherwise you have trans women having to choose between being more competitive and receiving necessary medical care.) This is incoherent as an argument. It conditions the category on checking off boxes on a medical treatment list. I hope it's not necessary to explain why this is absurd.

I read the statement as follows:

There is a category called woman, it’s defined by something that’s identify related.

Sports should only be segregated by this category, except that to remove perverse incentives it’s reasonable to require hrt

I’m unclear on what you find absurd about this?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#682

Post by space_fountain »

dillydogg wrote: post #659
Aurornis wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and some high-performing female athletes show signs of intersex, which has caused this entire hysteria about checking for penises. This is a gross (literally) misunderstanding of the entire topic The ruling covers a lot of the nuanced cases, including rare DSDs that may never even apply to Olympic athletes The tests DO NOT check for genitals, and that is irrelevant to the decisions! It's a cheek swab that checks ge…

What I would suggest as a pathologist who deals with diagnosing these: the incidence of differences of sexual development is somewhere between 1 in 1000 - 4500 births. So this policy will not unlikely diagnose someone with a DSD who didn't know.

When I’ve researched this it’s turned out that among elite athletes it tended to be a bit higher since some of these intersex conditions can confer benefits

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#683

Post by space_fountain »

dpd_dpd wrote: post #501
txrx0000 wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to develop relative skill rating systems like Elo.

No, the solution is to exclude male advantage from the female competition via evidence-based analysis, as the IOC's new policy does.

It’s interesting how the evidence based analysis switched as soon as the republicans came into power. Maybe this is less about evidence and more about opinion actually?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#684

Post by txrx0000 »

bombcar wrote: post #643
txrx0000 wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you're just suggesting making everything mixed-sex, and having very few women at the Olympics? Yeah. It would work like video game rankings. Top-ranked players are top-ranked because of skill, and if they happen to be mostly men for most games, so be it. But I get your point. The crux of the problem is most people don't want to see skill-based matchmaking. They want to see the best man, the best woman, or the be…

If we can admit of best male, best female, best disabled, best under the age of 18, etc, we can certainly admit of best trans-male; best trans-female.

That's a possible compromise, but a high maintenance one. It would set a precedent for other groups, and then we'd have to add a new category every time people complain.

I think we should just make the Olympics universal and let anyone compete for the title of absolute best in the world, no qualifiers. Detach the existing categories too, like men-only or women-only. Make all category-gated games a separate deal, like Paralympics. Each group can organize their own variant if they want.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#686

Post by space_fountain »

kelipso wrote: post #606
dangus wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like we are creatively bankrupt if we can’t think of any solution. I think many of us could think of a good solution in literally seconds. And there’s a really good argument that a solution isn’t actually needed. Does the NBA need a solution for Steph Curry being the best 3 point shooter of all time and dominating his competition? Did the NFL need a solution for Tom Brady winning the Super Bowl 30% of the se…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_2016_Summer_O... See all three medalists.

I think not many people are arguing that we shouldn’t exclude people based on testosterone in elite events, but none of these were trans women, these were all women who lived their entire lives as women from the moment they were born

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#687

Post by andsoitis »

erxam wrote: post #464
simondotau wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But surely puberty, not just maturity, is necessary to fully understand the sexual experience and whether your feelings about yourself crystalise differently in the presence of sexual drive. Not to mention, the idea of delaying puberty seems like an invitation for unrelated and/or unforeseen downstream consequences on biological health.

It is not. Precocious sexual drive is possibly amongst the worst things there is for gaining sexual maturity. Also known as 'thinking with your dick'. CSA aside, you can do a ton of damage to your life by just going along with your sexual drive. I am a virgin at 27 years old. What am I missing about the sexual experience? Is it somehow locked out to me? Or… can I access it intellectually, and reason about it with its…

> I am a virgin at 27 years old. What am I missing about the sexual experience?

Sex.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#688

Post by ragall »

ahhhhnoooo wrote: post #661
ragall wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You've posted this several times, and I think it represents a pretty narrow understanding of humans. Like, gender clearly and obviously exists. Why do women wear make up and skirts, while men typically dont? Is there a biological need to do those things? Is that universal across all cultures? Of course we have social norms for men and women. That set of norms is what gender is . Denying the idea that society expects…

There's no such thing as gender separate from sex. There's the recognition of one's immutable, inherent, sex, and tacking social expectations on top of it, but never that one could choose, or "feel". Always derived, never a choice. And when people allowed cross-dressing, it was always clear it was fake, pretending, never true. But they allowed people to have their personal delusions.

The origin of this use of "gender" itself is due to the prudishness of English upper classes in pronouncing the word "sex", so they repurposed "gender" which is just the French word "genre" meaning "kind" or "category". Much more acceptable in polite company than something that can allude to a sexual act, fornication.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#689

Post by rdevilla »

space_fountain wrote: post #681
remarkEon wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is. Note the parenthetical. >(To avoid perverse incentives, though, the HRT requirement is critical. Otherwise you have trans women having to choose between being more competitive and receiving necessary medical care.) This is incoherent as an argument. It conditions the category on checking off boxes on a medical treatment list. I hope it's not necessary to explain why this is absurd.

I read the statement as follows: There is a category called woman, it’s defined by something that’s identify related. Sports should only be segregated by this category, except that to remove perverse incentives it’s reasonable to require hrt I’m unclear on what you find absurd about this?

This implies that males who identify as women but do not undergo HRT are not women in the context of sports (and their gender in other contexts remains ill defined, especially in the absence of perverse incentive). This is a form of misgendering, which is what we were trying to avoid in the first place.

    This is a position that one could take up, but it comes
    at a steep cost. It holds the societal acceptance of
    transgenderism hostage to a biological account of
    sex-gender. This is problematic for several reasons.

    Moreover, it is worth highlighting the problems with
    suggesting that sex, as biologically based, determines
    the gender with which one psychologically identifies
    [...] Second, whatever criterion is offered to ground
    this similarity would inevitably disqualify many women,
    for not all women share the same hormone levels,
    reproductive capacity, gonadal structure, genital
    makeup, and so on. (Tuvel 2017)

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#690

Post by mmooss »

Jerrrrrrrry wrote: post #568
mmooss wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has Khelif published it? Otherwise, I don't think anyone's very personal information about their body should be on HN (or anywhere). If it doesn't violate a guideline, it should.

They violated the rules. They didnt have to compete.

What does that have to do with the GP?
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