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Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

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Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#681
post #628
post #234

This is the classic Suddenly Revealed Pedestrian test case, which afaik, most NCAP (like EuroNCAP, Japan NCAP) have as part of their standard testing protocols. Having performed this exact test on 3 dozen vehicles (L2/L3/L4) for several AV companies in the Bay Area [1], I would say that Waymo's response, per their blog post [2] has been textbook compliance. (I'm not defending their performance... just their response…

Waymo’s performance, once the pedestrian was revealed, sounds pretty good. But is 17mph a safe speed at an active school dropoff area? I admit that I don’t think I ever personally pay attention to the speedometer in such a place, but 17mph seems excessive even for an ordinary parking lot. I wonder whether Waymo’s model notices that small children are present or likely to be present and that it should leave extra marg…

> But is 17mph a safe speed at an active school dropoff area?

Now you're asking interesting questions... Technically, in CA, the speed limit in school zones are 25 mph (which local authorities can change to 15 mph, as needed). In this case, that would be something the investigation would check, of course. But regardless of that, 17 mph per se is not a very fast speed (my gut check: turning around intersections at > 10-11 mph feels fast, but going straight at 15-20 mph doesnt feel fast; YMMV). But more generally, in the presence of child VRUs (vulnerable road users), it is prudent to drive slowly just because of the randomness factor (children being the most unaware of critters). Did the Waymo see the kids around in the area? If so, how many and where? and how/where were they running/moving to? All of that is investigation data...

My 2c is that Waymo already took all of that into account and concluded that 17 mph was indeed a good speed to move at...

...which leads to your observation below:

> (My general impression observing Waymo vehicles is that they’ve gone from being obnoxiously cautious to often rather aggressive.)

Yes, I have indeed made that same observation. The Waymos of 2 years ago were very cautious; now they seem much more assertive, even a bit aggressive (though that would be tough to define). That is a driving policy decision (cautious vs assertive vs aggressive).

One could argue if indeed 17 mph was the "right" decision. My gut feel is Waymo will argue that (but likely they might make the driving policy more cautious esp in presence of VRUs, and child VRUs particularly)

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#682
post #306

Absent more precise information, this is a statistical negative mark for Waymo putting their child pedestrian injury rate at ~2-4x higher than the US human average. US human drivers average ~3.3 trillion miles per year [1]. US human drivers cause ~7,000 child pedestrian injurys per year [2]. That amounts to a average of 1 child pedestrian injury per ~470 million miles. Waymo has done ~100-200 million fully autonomous…

Do we even know that the child was injured? All I've seen anyone officially claim is that the Waymo made contact, the kid fell over, then stood up and walked to the side of the road. Assuming the Waymo was still braking hard, 6mph means it was about 1/4s and about 30cm from reaching a full stop, so it could be a very minor incident we're talking about here.

I'm not aware of any statistics for how often children come into contact with human-driven cars.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#683
post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is generally the problem with self-driving cars, at least in my experience (Tesla FSD). They don't look far enough ahead to anticipate what might happen and already put themselves in a position to prepare for that possibility. I'm not sure they benefit from accumulated knowledge? (Maybe Waymo does, that's an interesting question.) I.e., I know that my son's elementary school is around the corner so as I turn I'm…

Tesla FSD is leagues behind Waymo; generalizing based on your Tesla experience doesn't make sense.

Intellectually this doesn't even compute. Waymo is tele-oped in like 5 cities and FSD works in 5 countries. It's not even close.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#684
post #494
post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your experience, where do we find a credible source of info? Do we need to wait for the government's investigation to finish? > I would say that Waymo's response, per their blog post [2] has been textbook compliance. Remember Tesla's blog posts? Of course Waymo knows textbook compliance just like you do, and of course that's what they would claim.

> In your experience, where do we find a credible source of info? Do we need to wait for the government's investigation to finish? Most likely, yes, the NHTSA investigation will be credible source of info for this case. HOWEVER, Waymo will likely fight it tooth-and-nail from letting it be public. They will likely cite "proprietary algorithms / design", etc. to protect it from being released publicly. So, net-net, I d…

> You, Sir, cite two companies that are diametrically opposite on the safety spectrum

Cringe. Stop it. Simping for google has stopped being cool nearly 2 decades ago.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#685
post #137

Basically Waymo just prevented a kids potential death. Bad any other car been there, probably including Tesla, the poor kid would have been hit with 4-10x more force.

> any other car been there, probably including Tesla

Cheap shots. If this was Tesla there would be live media coverage across every news outlet around the world and congressmen racing to start investigation.

Look at any thread where Tesla is mentioned and how many waymo simps are mansplaning lidar.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slowing the adoption of much-safer-than-humans robotaxis, for whatever reason, has a price measured in lives. If you think that the principle you've just stated is worth all those additional dead people, okay; but you should at least be aware of the price. Failure to acknowledge the existence of tradeoffs tends to lead to people making really lousy trades, in the same way that running around with your eyes closed ten…

But we have no way of knowing whether robotaxis are safer. See, for example, the arguments raised here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2026-01-06/are-auton... We can't blindly trust Waymo's PR releases or apples-to-oranges comparisons. That's why the bar is higher.

You may not have any way of knowing but the rest of society has developed all sorts of systems of knowing. "Scientific method", "Bayesian reasoning", etc. or start with the Greek philosophy classics.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#687
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you drive in Sweden you will occasionally come up to a form of speed reduction strategy that may seem counterintuitive. They all add to make driving harder and feel more dangerous in order to force attention and lower speed. One is to merge opposite directional roads into a single lane, forcing drivers to cooperate and take turn to pass it, one car at a time. For a combined car and pedestrian road (max speed of 7k…

I've heard that that is why roundabouts are safer than their alternatives: counterintuitively, they're safer because they're less safe, forcing the user to pay more attention as a result.

I thought that the idea of roundabouts was that they lead to slightly more accidents than before, but they are of much lower severity than before (the 90 degree intersections they replace).

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#688
post #395

From the Waymo blog... > the pedestrian suddenly entered the roadway from behind a tall SUV, moving directly into our vehicle's path. Our technology immediately detected the individual as soon as they began to emerge from behind the stopped vehicle. The Waymo Driver braked hard, reducing speed from approximately 17 mph to under 6 mph before contact was made. > Following contact, the pedestrian stood up immediately, w…

An honest account of this situation would place at least some blame on there being a tall SUV blocking visibility. These giant SUVs really are the worst when it comes to child safety

What I find a bit confusing is that no one is putting any blame on the kid. I did the same thing as a kid, except it was a school bus instead of SUV, and that was a fucking stupid thing to do (I remember starting to run over the street, and the next thing is that I am in the hospital bed), even though I had been told to always cross the street from behind the bus, not in front of it.

That day I learned why it was so.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#689
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you drive in Sweden you will occasionally come up to a form of speed reduction strategy that may seem counterintuitive. They all add to make driving harder and feel more dangerous in order to force attention and lower speed. One is to merge opposite directional roads into a single lane, forcing drivers to cooperate and take turn to pass it, one car at a time. For a combined car and pedestrian road (max speed of 7k…

It's a runaway process of prioritizing safety over convenience -- and it's wrecking their road base just before self-driving cars would allow them to have both.

“Just before” … this would mean all cars would be required to be self driving and that they’re forced to adhere to the set speed limits. You think this is just around the corner? In a country like Sweden with a lot of snow? Let’s talk about that this when we’re actually close to hitting 100% of self driving cars on the road.

And it’s not “runaway”, it’s exactly the right prioritisation. I’d encourage you to spend some time on Not Just Bikes and the say whether you’d like to live in a Nordic or an American neighbourhood. The Nordic style is also about convenience because car centric infrastructure makes a lot of things less accessible and convenient.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#690

From the Waymo blog... > the pedestrian suddenly entered the roadway from behind a tall SUV, moving directly into our vehicle's path. Our technology immediately detected the individual as soon as they began to emerge from behind the stopped vehicle. The Waymo Driver braked hard, reducing speed from approximately 17 mph to under 6 mph before contact was made. > Following contact, the pedestrian stood up immediately, w…

I easily can: when in a school zone never every go so fast that you can't stop before hitting a kid, especially when visibility is limited.
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