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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

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Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#681

I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". I have been living with a de-googled android phone for a number of years, and it is getting harder and harder, while at the same time operating without certain "apps" is becoming more difficult. For example, by bank (abn amro) still allows online banking on desktop via…

I think it is kind of levels: "can't participate in society without a mobile phone" "can't participate in society without internet" "can't participate in society without google" not sure where is the logical correct threshold making it wrong. because we all accept maybe people not participating without internet.

> not sure where is the logical correct threshold making it wrong

This can't be more clear: Forcing to use the duopoly is against the competition and is totally wrong.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have many ISPs to choose from. There are not many "Googles" nor "Apples" to choose from.

Depending on where you live, a lot of times you don’t many to choose from. Maybe 2-3, but sometimes only one with fast enough speeds that it becomes the only option.

So they are effectively utilities and must be regulated accordingly.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the other way around. The security model of mobile devices seriously inhibits innovation and we end up with ever the same crappy apps we don't really need. I also don't believe more people get scammed on PC compared to mobile platforms. Scammers go where the most naive people congregate. A sensibly configured Linux system is very secure compared to your mobile device. No security model can really shield against…

>A sensibly configured [desktop, i.e., not just a headless server] Linux system is very secure compared to your mobile device. That is not true. It is understandable that you believe it because it gets repeated a lot, but those repeaters are doing what you are, namely repeating what they heard (and sometimes what they want to be true) without sufficient actual knowledge of what they are talking about.

It is fairly true, what is your definition here? The main attack vector today is malicious mails being opened. These usually don't target linux systems and fail to execute.

Sure, it is circumstancial security, but exploits exist for mobile devices as well.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to run an alternative operating system, you got to learn how it works. The typical user doesn't know how Windows works, and they can run that. These days, users can run a friendly GNU/Linux distribution not knowing how it works. So, disagree with you here.

> The typical user doesn't know how Windows works, and they can run that. That is because Windows for the most part manages itself and there are enough IT professionals, repairs shops and other third support options (including someone that is good with computers that lives down the road) where people can problems sorted. This is not the case with Linux. > These days, users can run a friendly GNU/Linux distribution no…

Anybody who is good with computers should be able to install linux, it's easier than to install windows, because you don't need to jump through capitalist dark patterns.

>Sooner or later there will be an issue that will need to be solved with opening up a terminal and entering a set of esoteric commands.

That's what I did to export drivers from previous windows installation in suspicion of regression.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#685
post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

My parents are getting old and they aren't tech savvy. The missing piece here is that I want my parents to have a computer they can safely do their banking on, without leaving them vulnerable to scams and viruses and the like. I like that they have iphones. Doing internet banking on their phone is safer than doing it on their desktop computer. Why is that? The reason is that the desktop PC security model is deeply fl…

What do you mean by "locked down computer." Maybe something like ChromiumOS?

Might be a tough sell for the volunteer open source community ("linux & friends") to work on such an alternative "locked down" computing experience. Free and open source software is usually more focused on unlocking use cases, not locking them up.

That all said, I basically consider macOS to be a locked down computing experience. So that's my solution for older people.

It's not a perfect solution but the Apple closed ecosystem is better designed for the limited use cases of the elderly. Rely on iCloud and built-in Apple approaches to data security as much as possible.

For example, an iMac and an iPhone can get all "adulting" use cases done, including typing/receiving emails, printing documents, online banking, government services, and so on. Apple Passwords plus Face ID helps to simplify password-based security. My biggest issue is getting TOTP-based two-factor adopted. Apple Passwords supports this but I usually have to do remote tech support to get it set up initially. It's also annoying that right now, the current generation of iMacs don't support FaceID, because that would simplify authentication across the two primary platforms (desktop/mobile).

I would never use this setup myself since I like to run F/OSS everywhere as much as possible. But I am realistic about tech expectations for the elderly who just want to live their life with minimal investment in learning about data/software security.

But you're right, along with other commenters, that it's dangerous for society to rely on a monopolist technocorporate overlord (or a pair of overlords forming a de facto duopoly) for the basic administrative tasks of adult living and lawful citizenship.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you want to run an alternative operating system, you got to learn how it works. You only need to learn how to start a browser. You're a little behind the times, today browser is the OS.

What happens when the OS that is running the browser fails to update because /boot has run out of room for a new Linux kernel (this happened to me the other week)? What happens when the browser update fails because the package database got corrupted? What happens when a lock file stop the whole system updating because of a previous iffy update? You are going to need to drop to a terminal and fix that issue or reinsta…

Does flatpak update automatically? As for /boot, format the whole drive and make it /boot

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#687
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“Hardware I own” sounds like you bought a pan and demand the right to cook any food you want. Because I did. How come I can do what I want with my computer, but not my phone? Why are phones so inferior in this area? My phone is more powerful than many of the computers I've had in the past, yet I need to jump through a million hoops to use it as a software development platform. Why?

Your smartwatch is probably more powerful than some of your past computers too. Same with your DSLR camera. Even your smart fridge. These are specialized hardware+software gadgets designed to a particular purpose, which is very different from being a development platform. Same with a phone.

>These are specialized hardware+software gadgets designed to a particular purpose, which is very different from being a development platform.

Then I shouldn't be able to install software on it at all. For any given device either its functions are fixed, or they're modifiable at the sole discretion of the owner. There should be no middle ground.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#688

I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". I have been living with a de-googled android phone for a number of years, and it is getting harder and harder, while at the same time operating without certain "apps" is becoming more difficult. For example, by bank (abn amro) still allows online banking on desktop via…

I think it is kind of levels: "can't participate in society without a mobile phone" "can't participate in society without internet" "can't participate in society without google" not sure where is the logical correct threshold making it wrong. because we all accept maybe people not participating without internet.

Clearly the logical threshold is when a single private corporation becomes the gatekeeper to your life. The internet itself is decentralized so that's fine. Mobile phones as a concept is also fine.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#689
post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

> Netflix shouldn't be able to insist on a particular type of DRM for me to receive their service.

Maybe it’s just a bad example, but why would this be true? As a private company delivering entertainment, they can have any restrictions they want as a condition to selling to you.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#690

I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". I have been living with a de-googled android phone for a number of years, and it is getting harder and harder, while at the same time operating without certain "apps" is becoming more difficult. For example, by bank (abn amro) still allows online banking on desktop via…

> I called their support line for a lost card, and had to go through to second level support because I didn't have the app. What’s the alternative? The bank sending out a debit card to anyone who calls up and says “I’m @kristov, trust me…” You were not able to served by the standard path, because you couldn’t authenticate yourself via the standard mechanism. You still got service by an alternate path. No different fr…

Wait, how you being on the Google/Apple ecosystem help the identification process?
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