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Open models by OpenAI

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Re: Open models by OpenAI

#681

Post by dns_snek »

sdenton4 wrote: post #352
dns_snek wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs are what they are, calling them "AGI" won't make them any more useful or exciting than they are, it's just going to devalue the term "AGI" which has revolutionary, disease-curing, humanity-saving connotations. What are you looking for us to say exactly? 1. We aren't even close to AGI and it's unclear that we'll ever get there, but it would change the course of humanity in a significant way if we ever do. 2. Wow…

I think getting out of the binary is good for the long run. We have something which is artificial, intelligent, and general in scope. We're there. Is it perfect? No. Is it even good? Sometimes! Do airplanes flap their wings? Also no, but they do a lot of stuff nonetheless.

That's where we disagree, I do not consider a system that isn't capable of learning, improving, or reasoning to be generally intelligent. My most basic criteria for "AGI" is a system that can absorb and integrate new knowledge through repetition and experience in real time, just like a human would.

Further, their statements, knowledge, and "beliefs" should be reasonably self-consistent. That's where I'm usually told that humans aren't self-consistent either, which is true! But if I ever met a human that was as inconsistent as LLMs usually are, I'd recommend that they get checked for brain damage.

Of course the value of LLMs isn't binary, they're useful tools in many ways, but the sales pitch was always AGI == human-like, and not AGI == human-sounding, and that's quite clearly not where we are right now.

Re: Open models by OpenAI

#682

Post by lucumo »

9rx wrote: post #650
tankenmate wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

chat log please?

https://dpaste.org/zOev0

I've never found the Socratic method to work well on any model I've tried it with. They always seem to get stuck justifying their previous answers.

We expect them to answer the question and re-reason the original question with the new information, because that's what a human would do. Maybe next time I'll try to be explicit about that expectation when I try the Socratic method.

Re: Open models by OpenAI

#683

Post by SergeAx »

cco wrote: post #357

The lede is being missed imo. gpt-oss:20b is a top ten model (on MMLU (right behind Gemini-2.5-Pro) and I just ran it locally on my Macbook Air M3 from last year. I've been experimenting with a lot of local models, both on my laptop and on my phone (Pixel 9 Pro), and I figured we'd be here in a year or two. But no, we're here today. A basically frontier model, running for the cost of electricity (free with a rounding…

Did you mean "120b"? I am running 20b model locally right now, and it is pretty mediocre. Nothing near Gemini 2.5 Pro, which is my daily driver.

Re: Open models by OpenAI

#684

Post by lucumo »

captainregex wrote: post #397
cco wrote: post #357

The lede is being missed imo. gpt-oss:20b is a top ten model (on MMLU (right behind Gemini-2.5-Pro) and I just ran it locally on my Macbook Air M3 from last year. I've been experimenting with a lot of local models, both on my laptop and on my phone (Pixel 9 Pro), and I figured we'd be here in a year or two. But no, we're here today. A basically frontier model, running for the cost of electricity (free with a rounding…

I’m still trying to understand what is the biggest group of people that uses local AI (or will)? Students who don’t want to pay but somehow have the hardware? Devs who are price conscious and want free agentic coding? Local, in my experience, can’t even pull data from an image without hallucinating (Qwen 2.5 VI in that example). Hopefully local/small models keep getting better and devices get better at running bigger…

I'm in a corporate environment. There's a study group to see if maybe we can potentially get some value out of those AI tools. They've been "studying" the issue for over a year now. They expect to get some cloud service that we can safely use Real Soon Now.

So, it'll take at least two more quarters before I can actually use those non-local tools on company related data. Probably longer, because sense of urgency is not this company's strong suit.

Anyway, as a developer I can run a lot of things locally. Local AI doesn't leak data, so it's safe. It's not as good as the online tools, but for some things they're better than nothing.

Re: Open models by OpenAI

#685

Post by [deleted] »

freehorse wrote: post #666
9rx wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried the two US presidents having the same parents one, and while it understood the intent, it got caught up in being adamant that Joe Biden won the election in 2024 and anything I do to try and tell it otherwise is dismissed as being false and expresses quite definitely that I need to do proper research with legitimate sources.

I mean I would hardly blame the specific model, Anthropic has a specific mention in their system prompts on trump winning. For some reason llms get confused with this one.

[deleted]

Re: Open models by OpenAI

#686

Post by fineIllregister »

dragonwriter wrote: post #679
fineIllregister wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, HIPAA requires that health care providers complete a Business Associate Agreement with any other orgs that receive PHI in the course of doing business [1]. It basically says they understand HIPAA privacy protections and will work to fulfill the contracting provider's obligations regarding notification of breaches and deletion. Obviously any EMR service will include this by default. Most orgs charge a huge…

> Most LLM companies might not even offer it. I'm pretty sure the LLM services of the big general-purpose cloud providers do (I know for sure that Amazon Bedrock is a HIPAA Eligible Service, meaning it is covered within their standard Business Associate Addendum [their name for the Business Associate Agreeement as part of an AWS contract].) https://aws.amazon.com/compliance/hipaa-eligible-services-re...

Sorry to edit snipe you; I realized I hadn't checked in a while so I did a search and updated my comment. It appears OpenAI, Google, and Anthropic also offer BAAs for certain LLM services.

Re: Open models by OpenAI

#687

Post by LinXitoW »

M4R5H4LL wrote: post #437
wizee wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privacy, both personal and for corporate data protection is a major reason. Unlimited usage, allowing offline use, supporting open source, not worrying about a good model being taken down/discontinued or changed, and the freedom to use uncensored models or model fine tunes are other benefits (though this OpenAI model is super-censored - “safe”). I don’t have much experience with local vision models, but for text ques…

+1 - I work in finance, and there's no way we're sending our data and code outside the organization. We have our own H100s.

Possibly stupid question, but does this apply to things like M365 too? Because just like with Inference providers, the only thing keeping them from reading/abusing your data is a pinky promise contract.

Basically, isn't your data as safe/unsafe in a sharepoint folder as it is sending it to a paid inference provider?

Re: Open models by OpenAI

#688

Post by LinXitoW »

bongodongobob wrote: post #403
datadrivenangel wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now to embrace jevon's paradox and expand usage until we're back to draining lakes so that your agentic refrigerator can simulate sentience.

Yep, it's almost as bad as all the cars' cooling systems using up so much water.

If you actually want a gotcha comparison, go for beef. It uses absurd amounts of every relevant resource compared to every alternative. A vegan vibe coder might use less water any given day than a meat loving AI hater.

Re: Open models by OpenAI

#689

Post by mastermage »

captainregex wrote: post #397
cco wrote: post #357

The lede is being missed imo. gpt-oss:20b is a top ten model (on MMLU (right behind Gemini-2.5-Pro) and I just ran it locally on my Macbook Air M3 from last year. I've been experimenting with a lot of local models, both on my laptop and on my phone (Pixel 9 Pro), and I figured we'd be here in a year or two. But no, we're here today. A basically frontier model, running for the cost of electricity (free with a rounding…

I’m still trying to understand what is the biggest group of people that uses local AI (or will)? Students who don’t want to pay but somehow have the hardware? Devs who are price conscious and want free agentic coding? Local, in my experience, can’t even pull data from an image without hallucinating (Qwen 2.5 VI in that example). Hopefully local/small models keep getting better and devices get better at running bigger…

I am just a cheapskate that wants to scale back on all subscription costs. I fucking hate subscriptions.

Re: Open models by OpenAI

#690

Post by bigmanhank »

Nomadeon wrote: post #458
dongobread wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How up to date are you on current open weights models? After playing around with it for a few hours I find it to be nowhere near as good as Qwen3-30B-A3B. The world knowledge is severely lacking in particular.

Agree. Concrete example: "What was the Japanese codeword for Midway Island in WWII?" Answer on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway#U.S._code-bre... dolphin3.0-llama3.1-8b Q4_K_S [4.69 GB on disk]: correct in deepseek-r1-0528-qwen3-8b Q6_K [6.73 GB]: correct in 10 seconds gpt-oss-20b MXFP4 [12.11 GB] low reasoning: wrong after 6 seconds gpt-oss-20b MXFP4 [12.11 GB] high reasoning: wrong after 3 m…

Not true: During World War II the Imperial Japanese Navy referred to Midway Island in their communications as “Milano” (ミラノ). This was the official code word used when planning and executing operations against the island, including the Battle of Midway.

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