Changes since congestion pricing started in New York • Hacker News Board

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#681

Post by mmooss » Fri, May 16, 2025, 1:04 AM UTC

vladvasiliu wrote: post #350

mmooss wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of places in the world run public bus systems - it seems by far the most common to me. It's hardly a thing of 'socialism' (always a bad word on HN).

I don't know about Chile, but I think the issue isn't so much the system being public , as in run by some form of government. Rather, the issue is in how "socialists" tend to run systems: everything is great until they run out of other people's money. Now, I'm not in the "free market will solve all our woes" camp, either, especially when it comes to what we call "public service" in France. Over here, transit systems…

> the issue is in how "socialists" tend to run systems: everything is great until they run out of other people's money.

That would seem true of any organization other than a self-funded one. All corporations, banks, governments, etc. use investment by others (including taxpayers) and cease operations if that investment stops.

The bland generalization about 'socialists' isn't meaningful without some evidence and a specific falsifiable claim. We can make statements like that about anything.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#682

Post by mmooss » Fri, May 16, 2025, 1:06 AM UTC

arh5451 wrote: post #377

mmooss wrote: post #323

The downsides are all dismissed one way or the other ... Restaurants, Broadway Holding up Pollution Too soon to say Lower-income commuters Too soon to say Public opinion Not great, but improving I think highly of the NYT, but this is a fan's article. At the top they say, The reporters sought information from everyone they could think of, including the M.T.A., the Fire Department, restaurant-booking platforms, researc…

Agreed, this article is a love letter to congestion charges. My guess is that nearly nothing has changed and will change. The fact is that the public transit systems are simply unable to modernise and Union Labor makes it next to impossible to make changes. When I bought a NJTransit when I started working a monthly ride card for a 1hr commute cost $500/month approximately. The same commute with a car was 45 minutes a…

> public transit systems are simply unable to modernise and Union Labor makes it next to impossible to make changes.

Public transit improves regularly and continuously in my experience, usually incrementally.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#683

Post by h2zizzle » Fri, May 16, 2025, 1:08 AM UTC

Tallain wrote: post #469

h2zizzle wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? Japanese subways were infamously the site of a nerve gas attack in the 90s. 33 people were killed in mass knife attacks in Kunming, China in 2014. France has had a handful of subway and train attacks. However, the point is that these incidents, along with the BART one, are unusual. Avoiding public transit because of them would be like avoiding flying because of air accidents or avoiding going to a theater or musica…

BART crime is up over the past decade. People don't avoid BART because of that headline with the chainsaw man. They avoid it because of everyday crime and violence. I'm sure it's similar for many other metro transport options in the USA. California in particular has a rough go for many reasons. It doesn't even have to be something bad or happen to you. One "my buddy had his bike stolen off the light rail" and several…

The "crime" story has been so twisted by propaganda and lies-by-statistics that you'll have to forgive me for saying that I can't take your word for it and will need numbers. Truthiness certainly can drive people to make poor, (unfounded) fear-based decisions.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#684

Post by h2zizzle » Fri, May 16, 2025, 1:10 AM UTC

horns4lyfe wrote: post #459

h2zizzle wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? Japanese subways were infamously the site of a nerve gas attack in the 90s. 33 people were killed in mass knife attacks in Kunming, China in 2014. France has had a handful of subway and train attacks. However, the point is that these incidents, along with the BART one, are unusual. Avoiding public transit because of them would be like avoiding flying because of air accidents or avoiding going to a theater or musica…

That’s rare enough to not keep people away from public transport. Speaking from experience in Portland OR, it’s more the daily low level stress of having to keep an eye out for the meth crazed lunatics around you. There always seems to be one and they’re wildly unpredictable.

That's another way of saying that we need more public investment (in addiction intervention programs, for one), not less.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#685

Post by Mawr » Fri, May 16, 2025, 1:18 AM UTC

RhysU wrote: post #64

bryanlarsen wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other forums there are lots of complaints about the NYC crackdown on e-bikes. NYC has taken steps to discourage their use. Maybe not enough, but definitely more than in most other parts of the country.

Stand on a corner in NYC and count the moving violations the e-bikes commit. Running lights and stops. Going the wrong way. Etc. These aren't subtle infractions of the law. Tell me why automated traffic enforcement cameras don't target them. As a motorcyclist, e-bikes piss me off to no end.

> Tell me why automated traffic enforcement cameras don't target them.

Beyond the obvious lack of registration plates, it's basic physics.

A fat guy on an e-bike is what, 100+30kg of mass? How fast do they go, maybe 35km/h (22mph) tops? That gives us the kinetic energy of roughly 6242J.

Let's compare with a silly lightweight 1,400kg car + 100kg driver moving at the same speed: 72,030J - 11 times greater.

At 50km/h (31mph) that becomes 144,907J - 23 times greater.

70km/h (43mph)? 46 times.

100km/h (62mph)? 94.

So the worst case possible for an ebike compared to the best case for a car has the car be 11 times more dangerous. More realistically, a car will be over 20 times more dangerous, with essentially infinite potential for more (do cars in cities travel at 31mph tops?).

Now, in another comment [1] you went ahead and said speed limits are set too low and mild speeding is all good and fine. Does it still seem so?

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43996494

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#686

Post by hollerith » Fri, May 16, 2025, 1:23 AM UTC

Mawr wrote: post #685

RhysU wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stand on a corner in NYC and count the moving violations the e-bikes commit. Running lights and stops. Going the wrong way. Etc. These aren't subtle infractions of the law. Tell me why automated traffic enforcement cameras don't target them. As a motorcyclist, e-bikes piss me off to no end.

> Tell me why automated traffic enforcement cameras don't target them. Beyond the obvious lack of registration plates, it's basic physics. A fat guy on an e-bike is what, 100+30kg of mass? How fast do they go, maybe 35km/h (22mph) tops? That gives us the kinetic energy of roughly 6242J. Let's compare with a silly lightweight 1,400kg car + 100kg driver moving at the same speed: 72,030J - 11 times greater. At 50km/h (3…

When walking on the sidewalks near my home, I don't fear being hit by fast-moving cars.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#687

Post by AStonesThrow » Fri, May 16, 2025, 2:02 AM UTC

Mawr wrote: post #685

RhysU wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stand on a corner in NYC and count the moving violations the e-bikes commit. Running lights and stops. Going the wrong way. Etc. These aren't subtle infractions of the law. Tell me why automated traffic enforcement cameras don't target them. As a motorcyclist, e-bikes piss me off to no end.

> Tell me why automated traffic enforcement cameras don't target them. Beyond the obvious lack of registration plates, it's basic physics. A fat guy on an e-bike is what, 100+30kg of mass? How fast do they go, maybe 35km/h (22mph) tops? That gives us the kinetic energy of roughly 6242J. Let's compare with a silly lightweight 1,400kg car + 100kg driver moving at the same speed: 72,030J - 11 times greater. At 50km/h (3…

Look, I don't care if there's a spherical cow in a vacuum or a witch with a broomstick going at 0.98c, your fat guy on an e-bike can endanger people and property if he's in the street.

Whatever $OPERATOR on $CONVEYANCE at $SPEED works out to, I would hope that each jurisdiction has a vested interest in safety on their roads. Indeed, the lack of registration plates, and the lack of licensing is a huge impediment.

I find that motorists with licenses tend to obey all relevant traffic laws. They are not prone to running red lights or swerving around or otherwise operating their cars dangerously. And I attribute this behavior mostly to the fact that driving is a privilege that can be restricted or revoked.

If you fine a pedestrian for jaywalking then they can pay that fine or not. You cannot prevent a pedestrian from walking around in the street. You apparently cannot prevent people from riding bikes or scooters, either. Since there is no licensing and no "privilege" to do so, it's more or less anything-goes on the streets with such conveyances.

Nevertheless, I've been that fat guy on an electric scooter, and I'm telling you, it would not be surprising to maim or kill a vulnerable pedestrian (and my own self) if I'm going along at 17mph in the road.

Perhaps the cameras can't catch or target them, but hopefully some enforcement can be brought to bear on such dangerous activity.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#688

Post by zahlman » Fri, May 16, 2025, 2:03 AM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #593

w0m wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't find the food tempting One thing I realized a number of years ago is that my childhood instilled biases in me. A Few Examples: Sushi/Raw Fish/ethnic/spicy food == Bad Apple Products == For Suckers Ford == Found On Road Dead (bowtie life) AMD >>> Evil Netburst Intel empire. When I realized just how irrational I was on soo many subjects (I had never seen sushi or really any ethnic food until I was at my first…

My view of vegan food has been shaped by occasionally suffering it (ok, so I' exaggerating with the "suffering") Heck, my breakfeast at the moment is vegan, because I'm on a diet and cutting real milk out of it let me drop a few more calories, not because I find it more enjoyable, because I very much detest the milk substitute. But cutting a few more calories makes it easier to add plenty of meat to my other meals. I…

> cutting real milk out of it let me drop a few more calories, not because I find it more enjoyable, because I very much detest the milk substitute.

Way off topic now, but: emphasis on few. Surely you don't use more than a couple ounces on a bowl of cereal? You might lose about 20 calories this way - but if you find it that unpleasant, you'll surely find them somewhere else.

> But cutting a few more calories makes it easier to add plenty of meat to my other meals.

Sure - perhaps an extra third of an ounce of steak.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#689

Post by Mawr » Fri, May 16, 2025, 2:08 AM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #7

Not to settle on "It's bad" but their so called "results" seems completely obvious. The congestion policy is disincentivizing/suppressing people's preferred method by making it unaffordable to some, and unappealing to some. We already know that we can use policy to push people away from their preferred to a less preferred method. The items listed in green are mostly obvious as people seek alternatives. It's like high…

> The congestion policy is disincentivizing/suppressing people's preferred method by making it unaffordable to some, and unappealing to some.

Do you think people in medieval times also preferred commuting by car but had to suffer through using horses? There's no such thing as "preference" that's somehow not influenced by the environment you exist in.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#690

Post by danbmil99 » Fri, May 16, 2025, 3:18 AM UTC

dangus wrote: post #319

TylerE wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 26% of NYC due way stations have elevators.

This statistic looks really bad but a large number of subway stations are very close to each other, so it's rather easy to find an alternative accessible station somewhat nearby in many cases (especially in Manhattan) When the MTA prioritizes accessibility projects they take this into consideration and prioritize stations that have few options for alternatives. I will also point out that buses exist in NYC.

The NYC buses require you to take the kid(s) out of the pram and fold it up. A total PITA

Another kvetch: using car seats in taxis. Maybe it's different now with Uber but 20 years ago the drivers hated it because you have to find the seat belt and secure the car seat...