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What if we made advertising illegal?

simone.org

681–690 of 1001 posts

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#681
You can ban specific forms of advertising. But the general form is too vague, too easy to hide.

Movies set in our world, for example, should be allowed to show real cars, real phones, etc. But that is nigh impossible to prevent from becoming a fight for getting your product placed. And lots of similar places.

It might be possible to outlaw ads targeted more narrowly than a bit of content (i.e. advertisers have to choose, ahead of publication, what content to put their ads next to.) Combining this with banning some of the more direct advertising might work. Though perhaps a world where advertising is purely done through product placement is also horribly distopian.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#682
This idea isn't uncommon because it's beyond the Overton window, it's uncommon because it is silly and unworkable.

* Total fantasy to think you wouldn't fall afoul of free speech, both legally (in the US) and morally.

In fact, the author touts as a benefit that you'd stop populists being able to talk to their audience. This is destroying the village of liberal democracy in order to save it!

* Absolutely zero thought has been given to how to police the boundaries. Giving a paid speech? Free gifts for influencers? Rewards for signing up a friend?

* Products need marketing. You don't just magically know what to buy. Advertising fulfils an important social role. Yes, I know it can be annoying/intrusive/creepy. "In our information-saturated world, ads manipulate, but they don't inform" is an evidence-free assertion.

* Banning billboards or other public advertising? Fine. Not new. Done all over the place for commonsensical reasons.

* Any article that talks about "blurry, “out-of-focus fascism”—that sense of discomfort that you feel but can't quite point out" is itself blurry and out-of focus, not to say absurd and hyperbolic. Calling a mild sense of psychological discomfort "fascism" is just embarrassing.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#683
I hate advertising because it’s nonconsensual, subconscious manipulation. When I see an ad for product X, I’m more likely to buy it in the store than product Y because there’s artificially increased familiarity for it in my brain. If the purpose of advertising was to inform, you’d never see an ad for Coca Cola, since everybody on the planet knows about it already. The %0.01 of advertising that informs me of a product that I might actually purchase can die overnight, and I’d not notice a difference, because I use adblockers and when I need something, I search for it on the internet, Google, Amazon, and the like. When I need reviews I turn to Reddit and HN.

If advertising is a zero-sum game between companies competing for your eyeball-minutes, allocating double digits of their income to marketing departments, it’s a net drain on the economy. If it’s a positive-sum game for companies and you are purchasing more goods than you otherwise would because of the ads you see, it means you are purchasing stuff you don’t need, and it means advertising is a way to funnel your money to companies through nonconsensual means, i.e theft. In reality it’s a slightly positive sum game for companies.

Advertising is cancerous in the sense that if there was no advertising, nobody needs to advertise, but if somebody is advertising and you are not, then you’ll lose market share and die, so you advertise too and hence it spreads. It is parasitic in the sense that vast amounts of collective resources of society is spent on this redirecting-money-from-company-A-to-company-B scheme with no positive value generated.

Political advertising undermines democracy. Ads have a huge influence on the outcome of modern elections. You need billionaires backing you to fund your campaign, and guess what? Those billionaires will have some special requests when you take the seat. Fair elections and leaders caring for the people are only possible in a world without political advertising.

All arguments in favor of advertising are circular, they presume the current economy/society where everything is heavily dependent on advertising and then point out “Look, but X wouldn’t work without advertising!” In reality a world without advertising would look much different, and my hunch is it would be wealthier and with less inequality, too.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#684
post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>is a valid and desirable function No I don’t think so. I would genuinely guess that 97% of the ads I see are irrelevant garbage or, more commonly, bids by products I know to raise awareness to increase the probability of their sale. I discover the vast majority of what I care about through word of mouth and I suspect I’d be fine without ads. There are so many negative externalities that it’s actually ridiculous.

And pray tell how the chain of word of mouth started for that product?

People who work there.

People who come across the product in a shop or in/on a market.

Reading (unpaid) reviews.

There are vastly many ways that unbiased, factual information about a new product can be disseminated to those who are looking for it that are not advertising.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#685

Define advertising. Studies suggest that as much as 80% of news articles may have been placed by PR firms rather than generated through independent reporting. This forum is a classic case where blog posts are masquerading as authentic content, when in reality, they're simply another form of advertising.

No worries, we can make those illegal too.

The internet is so full of authoritarians wanting to outlaw everything thinking that will work and not even thinking about supply and demand, definition of what is actually ilegtal and enforcement of that.

It's hilarious. For a forum where people pretend to be smart it's absolutely missing critical thinking.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#686
post #345
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need to go into absurd discussions in order to prevent 99% of the harm that comes from modern advertising. The line is clear: is money being exchanged in order to promote a product? That's advertising. Someone I know mentioning a product because they want to recommend it to me? Not advertising. Giving out "free" samples? Presumably someone is being paid to do that, so advertising. We can later quibble about…

Maybe you should post a proposal for a law that's a little more specific than "is money being exchanged in order to promote a product? That's advertising." Then we can see if it is in fact possible to prevent 99%, or for that matter 50%, of the harm that comes from modern advertising, without outlawing other things. Let's consider toomim's three examples: "would you like to try a rosé with that dish? It pairs very we…

I'm not a lawyer, nor is it my job to come up with loophole-free regulation. People in those professions can think hard about this problem, and do a much better job than some layperson who thought about it for a few minutes on an internet forum. Even for them, though, coming up with laws without loopholes that are not too restrictive in legitimate situations is often impossible, so it's ridiculous that you would expect the same from me.

That said, after thinking about it for a few more minutes, I can think of one simple addendum to my initial criteria. I wrote about it here[1], so I won't repeat myself.

It's asinine that this discussion is taken to extreme ends. We don't need to ban all forms of advertising and get into endless discussions about semantics and free speech in order to stop the abuse of the current system. There is surely a middle ground that does it in a sensible way. The only reason we don't fix this is because the powers that be have no incentives to do so, and the general population is conditioned and literally brainwashed to not care about it.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43599948

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#687

The issue is that if you ban advertising, we still get advertising, but it'll be done in a way that hides that it is an advertisement. Aka, the internet will be full of bot posts that are thinly veiled ads posing as legitimate inquiry or discussion. That's a worse off scenario. Better the enemy you know.

Currently, we have both, so banning ads would reduce ads.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#688
post #37
post #10

This begs the question: how could you reliably distinguish advertising from other forms of free speech? The courts already distinguish "commercial speech" as a class of speech. Would we prevent all forms of commercial speech? What about a waiter asking you "would you like to try a rosé with that dish? It pairs very well together." Is that "advertising" that would need to be outlawed? What about giving out free sample…

The answer is the same way we banned cigarette ads.

Yep, such an obvious & simple answer.

I’m always amazed by how much ink gets poured before somebody mentions the obvious: this question has already been answered in a different context.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#689

The buried lede: ```Populists exploit ad marketplaces, using them to bypass traditional media gatekeepers``` I want to believe that the author is hopelessly naive, and not a more nefarious actor. These traditional media gatekeepers are not by any means friendly to democracy; they're literal tools of the state, and actively work against the interests of the populace. I say this without a hint of irony: I trust social…

It's always the same story. I'm mad trump or some "right leaning" party won so this is what we can do to prevent that by being authoritarian "to fight fascism" and "the greater good".

It's not an honest what if because it finds no downsides or tradeoffs nor does it try to define what exactly would be ilegal.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#690
post #262

I can’t stop thinking about this article. I spent a long time in ad tech before switching to broader systems engineering. The author captures something I've struggled to articulate to friends and family about why I left the industry. The part that really struck me was framing advertising and propaganda as essentially the same mechanism - just with different masters. Having built targeting systems myself, this rings p…

> imagine a world without advertising I can't because a world with magic and world peace is more realistic and believable. It's impossible. How do you even define advertising? If you define it conservatively, then advertising will skirt through the loopholes. If you define it liberally, then you have an unfair, authoritarian system that will definitely be selectively enforced against political enemies. And in all cas…

> you are self-imposing a restriction that will give other nations an economic advantage and jeopardizing long-term sovereignty.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What is your evidence that there is any economic advantage at all to have unregulated advertising?

I'm fairly sure advertising is regulated in all sovereign states. And I am also quite certain that the jurisdictions in which gambling advertisement is illegal fare better economically than those in which it is illegal. It only makes sense: gambling is not productive, the less of it you have the better your population spend their money on productive things, the more advertising you have the more people spend on gambling (otherwise what is the point of advertising?), if you forbid gamling advertising there will be less gambling advertising (if not, what is your complaint even?).

Nothing about this statement of yours makes sense.

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