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Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#681

Post by umeshunni »

cosmojg wrote: post #509
somat wrote: post #489

The whole app ecosystem(android and apple) is carefully constructed for maximum market owner value extraction, user value is a secondary consideration. Basically, it is what the web would look like if it were developed by corporate interests, conversely "apps" could have been a better designed web[1], but instead are this comparatively clunky gated process where you have to explicitly install the app first only then…

Oh, the tragedy of what could have been: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_OS

But that would have required someone other than Mozilla to run Firefox

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#682

Post by celticninja »

redundantly wrote: post #645
catlikesshrimp wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, this evolved naturally. The TI calculators were progamable, my brother used those. Then the pocket pcs (windows ce) had 3rd party programs, those were distributed as files by the publisher. Program stores were webpages were people sold their files. I used the skyscape medical books; you installed the program as usual, then you bought a code specific for your version and file. All that done through a webpa…

> For your safety, of course. I know they have ulterior motives for their walled garden, but this is a product of said garden. The App Store is by far much safer to use than Google's Play Store. Plus the parental controls on android are essentially non-existent. I'm happy in this walled garden.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685272

So safe in this walled garden where Apple reviews all apps for user safety and security.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#683

Post by mellutussa »

bogwog wrote: post #67

> Alternative app marketplaces. Marketplaces can choose to offer a catalog of apps solely from the developer of the marketplace. How does that count as a "marketplace"? > Web Distribution ... will let authorized developers distribute their iOS apps to EU users directly from a website owned by the developer All of this just makes it crystal clear what Apple's goal is: to prevent competition. It's not about security li…

> How does that count as a "marketplace"?

I'm assuming that Apple is going to profit from that catalogue.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#684

Post by dkarras »

xuhu wrote: post #541
dkarras wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they should be forced to develop the SDK and the dev tools for free and provide that support for free? I mean it would be very nice of them to do so, but legally forcing them to do it? I don't know about that. It is a shortsighted "solution".

The SDK is paid for when purchasing the phone. Same as with Mac OS, OS X, DOS, Windows, Android, Blackberry, ChromeOS and every other OS out there. It's not shortsighted, it's worked well for the past 50 years or so.

What worked well for the past 50 years was freedom. None of those operating systems were forced to provide dev kits at no additional cost. They did it to compete. If Apple's additional costs' value proposition was not there, they would not be successful, they would not be able to attract good developers creating good software. Apple is not a monopoly either, there is competition. So forcing them to provide a service at no additional cost is just theft. And corporations can circumvent the hit they will get from being forced in innumerable ways in a capitalist system, all at the expense of the consumer.

The point is, nobody is disallowed from competing with Apple and its ecosystem on its merits. If Apple didn't provide enough value in return to what they ask, they would fail. Signaling that you will punish success with force means that the next Apple will be a lot more cautious about how they do things. Jacked up prices (as long as value proposition is there, people will pay, they will just pay more), requiring dev kits (can you force a company to change their hardware design so that it can be developed on? where is the limit?) / expensive partnership agreements / increasing the barrier to entry... Unless companies are "state owned" they have infinite ways to keep their profits at the expense of consumers. Apple's existing deal was a good deal - it was working, competition was (and is still) there. Now they will have to do the things that will just inconvenience users as a side effect, which is what they don't want to do, but they will be forced to do regardless.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#685

Post by redundantly »

celticninja wrote: post #680
redundantly wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For your safety, of course. I know they have ulterior motives for their walled garden, but this is a product of said garden. The App Store is by far much safer to use than Google's Play Store. Plus the parental controls on android are essentially non-existent. I'm happy in this walled garden.

Have you tried parental controls on Android or are you just taking out of the side of your mouth? I have parental controls for my kids android devices and it works exceptionally well. I am not dissing the apple version because I have not used it, and based on your comment I have to assume you have not used the android parent controls and are just needing to convince yourself that apple are better and the apple premiu…

I have tried it. More than one phone from different carriers. The parental controls are lacking.

It's been a couple of years since I've last tried, but given Google's history regarding subpar controls I doubt it has gotten appreciably better.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#686

Post by redundantly »

celticninja wrote: post #682
redundantly wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For your safety, of course. I know they have ulterior motives for their walled garden, but this is a product of said garden. The App Store is by far much safer to use than Google's Play Store. Plus the parental controls on android are essentially non-existent. I'm happy in this walled garden.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685272 So safe in this walled garden where Apple reviews all apps for user safety and security.

I didn't claim that it's perfect, just that it's safer.

Regarding smartphone safety, the only truly safe thing to do is not not use one at all.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#687

Post by okanat »

fstanis wrote: post #646
TheArcane wrote: post #644

How does someone not in the EU get this? I wonder what Apple's line is to justify not making this open for everyone

something something security

I think the main point is the theft protection and protection from state. The US and the UK's democratic systems are broken.

In the US the social structure is slowly collapsing which increases theft and other petty crimes, at the same time the federal state has a huge surveillance power.

Solving the societal and political problems so there is less incentive having your iPhone stolen is hard. Expecting a state-like company to benevolently save you is the way they cope.

TBH without the EU, legislation like DMA would also be hard to come up with. The independent countries have less power to exert over American behemoths. This is the nice thing about EU.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#688

Post by willseth »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #659
willseth wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of this just makes it crystal clear what Apple's goal is: to prevent competition. Web Distribution requires stricter app and developer review than Marketplace distribution.

Isn't that kind of the point? The goal was to get out of Apple's clutches when your customers have their devices, so Apple made the thing meant to be independent even more dependent than the original in order to deter adoption.

The parent comment cited Web Distribution as evidence that Apple doesn't actually care about safety and security, when in fact Web Distribution is more secured than Marketplace distribution.

> The goal was to get out of Apple's clutches when your customers have their devices

Whose goal? Read the DMA. It is very explicit that it expects Apple to maintain security of devices and apps.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#689

Post by redundantly »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #673
redundantly wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For your safety, of course. I know they have ulterior motives for their walled garden, but this is a product of said garden. The App Store is by far much safer to use than Google's Play Store. Plus the parental controls on android are essentially non-existent. I'm happy in this walled garden.

The premise of a walled garden is to keep unwanted things out, not to imprison you inside. Apple maintaining a store where they've vetted everything in it is fine, and if you like you can refuse to install anything from outside of it. That doesn't justify them prohibiting you from installing anything from outside of it. It should be up to you. If you wanted to, you could even configure your phone to not add any new s…

I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be opened up. I'm just stating that by being a walled garden it is safer.

When things eventually open up, when Apple is finally forced to permit other app stores on their mobile devices, I'll take a hard pass on them.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#690

Post by dkarras »

okanat wrote: post #677
xuhu wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SDK is paid for when purchasing the phone. Same as with Mac OS, OS X, DOS, Windows, Android, Blackberry, ChromeOS and every other OS out there. It's not shortsighted, it's worked well for the past 50 years or so.

and for advanced developer tooling you can charge. This is what MS does. Visual Studio (not Code) is not free for businesses. One can still do C# development using only Windows SDK and/or dotnet SDK for "free". You cannot do C/C++ or Rust developement without a license but with MinGW you also can do it without MS SDK. MS doesn't prevent people from using GCC compilers. Their core C++ developers even use it: https://n…

the point is, MS and others are free to choose how they will offer their services. They can say "hey I'll provide this for free, and I will make you pay for this other thing". As long as they are not a monopoly in computing, they should be free to do whatever they want, no? If they go bonkers with what they ask vs the value they provide, competition will wipe them out - easy peasy.

Apple could have said at the beginning "hey this is iPhone, there are no external apps for it though" - which was actually the case! iPhone did not have 3rd party apps at launch.

Then Apple could have said "good news everyone, you can now develop for the iPhone. Dev kits start at $10000 per unit, apply to partner with us, call us at this number" and that would be the end of it. Lots of gadgets still work like that and nobody bats an eye.

Apple decreased the barrier to entry and provided it as a service, charged for it but created good value in return, and it worked! But now that governments signal that they will punish such success, the next Apple will likely not go the way of low barrier of entry - this will hurt the regular folk, people with not so deep pockets.

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