Live data from Hacker News

The pro-Israel information war

jackpoulson.substack.com

681–690 of 1001 posts

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have nothing to add here, other than to thank you for expressing this so cogently. It’s not always “right” to measure just action in terms of lives saved or lost, but it’s hard for me (and so many other American Jews) to see anything right or just about 10 dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli.

[flagged]

> So you are suggesting an eye for an eye, we should kill a Palestinian for every one of our dead? Honestly, I find that thought disgusting.

I don’t know how you can possibly arrive at this interpretation from what I wrote.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-semitism in and of itself is unequivocally wrong. But conflating anti-Israeli views with anti-Semitic views does a disservice to Jews and Palestinians alike.

It’s obviously true that criticism of Israel isn’t inherently antisemitic. But that’s also a convenient excuse used by people who are actually antisemitic. Both of these things can be true at once.

It's only convenient when we refuse to expand our counter-narrative. I call that lazy.

We could continue to bundle every criticism of Israel together, or we could confront each criticism directly.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#683
post #521
post #7

Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. https://twitter.com/antgoldbloom/status/1721561226151612602 If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views https://twitter.com/committeeonccp/status/173279243496103143... It also seems like these platforms create (rather than support) anti-Israeli views: https://twitter.…

I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed. It is possible to simultaneously support the interests of Palestinian and Israeli civilians (and support a peaceful Israel within the 1967 boundaries), while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) and Hamas. I think it is cur…

[flagged]

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#684
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> equally abohorrent Comparing it to the Ukraine's invasion and we can see this is so much more "invasive". There's a literal wall around 2M ppl with little agency, while most of them are refugees from the other side of the wall. To methis is one of the most abohorrent conflicts in earth in this day and age. Given South Africa is no longer segregated, and Rwanda reconciled. I'd be interested to hear what's equally ab…

Nelson Mandela has spoken out on the brutal oppression of the Palestinians by Israel[1]. His words are powerful, and worth reading. > To methis is one of the most abohorrent conflicts in earth in this day and age. He agrees with you. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/9/26/gaza-and-the-cr...

And yet, in that entire article I can find no concrete quote of Mandela pointing out a single action that Israel did to criticize. Just general "Israel is the worst".

Interestingly, the idea that Mandela called Israel an apartheid state was debunked on Stack Exchange, you can read that here: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/50771/did-nelso...

What Mandela did say about atrocities was directed at the US:

  > If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care for human beings.
  - Nelson Mandela

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that forcing this dichotomy is part of the deliberate pro-Israel media strategy - if you despise Hamas inhumane acts, then of course you need to be pro-Israel. They want you to focus on Hamas to steer away your attention from what Israel has been doing. (this is also one of the reasons why Hamas has historically been an asset for the Israeli right)

[flagged]

That's not a good line of argument to take here given that Israel has mandatory military service and given what its democratically-elected government has been doing to the Palestinians for generations.

Part of the reason why the conflict drags on and is making that little pocket of the world a festering sore of evil is because so many Palestinians and Israelis think like this.

Be part of the solution, not the problem. It is not as easy as simply believing that whatever your group is doing is right, some other group is less worthy of moral consideration than yours, and wallowing in the victim-mentality that anyone criticizing your actions or position is racist towards you. That's how you know it is right.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In contrast, Israel has a ~20% Arab minority (excluding Gaza and West Bank). I'm reminded of an anecdote (probably false) of when someone was asked in an interview why all manhole covers are round. He replied that not all manhole covers are round. They countered "Well, just consider the round ones".

Well Gaza is self governing (or was, until Oct 7th). Israel can't (couldn't) impose apartheid on Gaza any more than France imposes apartheid on Germany by being a separate country with borders. West Bank is more complicated, but the same concept applies. If Israel was motivated by racist or other tendencies to want to impose apartheid, they would start with the areas they have full control over. Why would they allow…

> West Bank is more complicated, but the same concept applies.

"OK don't worry about oval ones. Just consider the round ones."

All this aside, I don't think you understand what is meant by Apartheid. This is coming from a South African who grew up during that era.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that forcing this dichotomy is part of the deliberate pro-Israel media strategy - if you despise Hamas inhumane acts, then of course you need to be pro-Israel. They want you to focus on Hamas to steer away your attention from what Israel has been doing. (this is also one of the reasons why Hamas has historically been an asset for the Israeli right)

Let's take a very clear, narrow lens on the issue. Let's also separate Palestinian civilians from those exerting power unto them in Gaza. I say this because any other way is a can of worms. How did Hamas come into power? What are its goals? What have they promised to do to accomplish those objectives? Their goals are of malicious intent, and they have demonstrated that they're willing to do anything to accomplish the…

These are good questions and I hope someone with more knowledge then me answers them more thoroughly. In short my answers are:

How did Hamas come to power? Via democratic elections and by winning a subsequent civil war.

What are their goals? Total Palestinian liberation and the restoration of the pre 1948 borders (a.k.a one state solution).

How do they promise to achieve these goals? Via armed struggle, a.k.a. intifada and revolution.

Hamas came into power after a fair democratic election in 2006. Outside observers monitored the elections and all agreed they were correct and fair. The only major interference actually came from Israel which backed the rival political group Fatah. Following the election the Palestinian civil war broke out in Gaza, which Hamas won. After which they took full control of the Gaza strip. There has not been an election since then, neither on Gaza nor on the West Bank. Aside: The legislative council in Gaza was demolished by the Israeli army last November.

Meanwhile on the West Bank Fatah took power, where they control the Palestinian Authority. It is interesting to see the fate of the territory each faction controls. While Gaza suffers a blockade and constant military interventions, the West Bank is suffering from constant incursion from settlers and military raids as well as further partitioning of their lands, illegal settlements, military checkpoints, etc.

In simple terms, Fatah supports the two state solution, among with most of the international community, which is why many Western nations view them as the legitimate government despite Hamas having won the election fair and square. Hamas on the other hand at first did not recognize Israel as a state, and wanted all of historic Palestine under Palestinian control. Since 2006 they have somewhat eased their stance against Israel, but are still calling for decolonization and one state.

The Palestinian Authority (and Fatah by extension) is not popular among Palestinians. The way I understand it is that people view them as a colonial government, pandering to the interest of their colonizers. It is my understanding that Hamas is viewed favorably, as pandering to the interests of the colonizers has not left the West Bank in a nice state for the indigenous population.

In short, in simple terms (as per my limited understanding), the two state solution is not seen as the right path inside Palestine, so people actually support Hamas’ one state solution, and see the fight for decolonization as legitimate. This may be a tough reality for westerners to accept as Hamas is only portrait by their very real and devastating atrocities, but seldomly seen as liberation fighters and never recognized for their decolonization efforts.

Instead of relying on western analysis of the situation, I actually like to take in some historic comparisons. The Mau Mau in Kenya were indeed very brutal, and conducted very severe crimes against, however their fight—with the hindsight of history—was indeed very just, and resulted in the liberation of Kenya from the oppressive British colonial rule. Another example is FLN in Algeria, which probably had even more popular support then the Mau Mau, and were even more brutal in their fight against their French colonial oppressors.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#688
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is a very interesting point of view, I was not aware of this. Is there any reliable data on how Muslim Israeli citizens view their own situation e.g. freedom of speech and political participation?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Israel

Muslim citizens within Israel have equal rights and many become parliamentarians, judges, diplomats, public health officials, and IDF generals.[23]

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#689
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is a very interesting point of view, I was not aware of this. Is there any reliable data on how Muslim Israeli citizens view their own situation e.g. freedom of speech and political participation?

It counters the apartheid state narrative pretty hard so of course it’s swept under the rug.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have nothing to add here, other than to thank you for expressing this so cogently. It’s not always “right” to measure just action in terms of lives saved or lost, but it’s hard for me (and so many other American Jews) to see anything right or just about 10 dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli.

[flagged]

> So you are suggesting an eye for an eye, we should kill a Palestinian for every one of our dead? Honestly, I find that thought disgusting.

Just to be clear: you find that more disgusting than killing over ten Palestinians for every dead Israeli?

Post reply on HN