Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging • Hacker News Board

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#681

Post by PM_me_your_math » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 2:42 AM UTC

pierat wrote: post #556

jmspring wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ex of someone I know is both a user and a dealer. He opted to be homeless over getting clean. Sadly here in the states there is little you can do if an adult chooses a self destructive path - calls to sheriff/police did nothing - “nothing we can do until he commits a crime”. Where “crime” is something other than the drug use/possession. This individual has always been self absorbed and useless. His daughter asked…

What's the saying... "My body, My choice" ? Well, some people will choose, willingly, to waste their life away living on the streets from one high to the next. The difference between most types of poverty and this, is that they *chose* this path. Bodily autonomy has powerful upsides, as well as downsides. Here's one of the downsides. If they wanted to 'get out', I'd be there to help them if I knew them. But they have…

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#682

Post by chris_wot » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 2:45 AM UTC

richk449 wrote: post #647

chris_wot wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is good shame and bad shame. If you murder someone, then you should rightly feel shame. If you are gay, then you should not feel shame. Shame can work both ways.

And if I want to know if I or my neighbor should be shamed for something, I just consult you, the oracle of shame?

Sure, feel free.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#683

Post by TedDoesntTalk » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 2:47 AM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #679

pierat wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the saying... "My body, My choice" ? Well, some people will choose, willingly, to waste their life away living on the streets from one high to the next. The difference between most types of poverty and this, is that they *chose* this path. Bodily autonomy has powerful upsides, as well as downsides. Here's one of the downsides. If they wanted to 'get out', I'd be there to help them if I knew them. But they have…

> What's the saying... "My body, My choice" ? Someone needs to be of sound mind to make a choice. Clearly you can't sign life-changing legal documents, or testify in court while drunk. A range of other conditions, like deep depression, state of shock, etc. count. Does addiction? Surely a definition of addiction is that you cannot stop, i.e. its a mental condition. Like if someone ia diagnosed with paranoid schizophre…

> if someone is diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, do we ask them if they want treatment? No, we have to treat then anyway.

That is not true in all US states. One cannot be committed to a mental institution against one’s will unless ordered by a judge. And one can’t be forced to ingest antipsychotics unless committed against one’s will. It’s a very high bar to get a judge to commit a person against their will, and it only lasts 30 days or less.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#684

Post by zer8k » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 2:48 AM UTC

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #616

zer8k wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simply put: fuck the social contract. I didn't sign it. It doesnt get me any benefits, and all it is a whole lot of "costs", all of which are ill defined. All of your "polite" behavior is modified by shame. To use an extreme, contrived, example if you shit on the floor your parents probably shamed you into using the restroom properly. You can, of course, continue to shit on the floor but you also can't act with suc…

It’s kinda horrifying that you think shaming kids is how you teach them anything.

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#685

Post by chris_wot » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 2:49 AM UTC

re-thc wrote: post #640

chris_wot wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is good shame and bad shame. If you murder someone, then you should rightly feel shame. If you are gay, then you should not feel shame. Shame can work both ways.

> If you are gay, then you should not feel shame. Shame can work both ways. Anything can go both ways. In the past you can go to jail for being gay (and still in some parts of the world).

Yes, but I'd argue that is likely the bad shame that is unproductive and unnecessary.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#686

Post by arrosenberg » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 2:49 AM UTC

PM_me_your_math wrote: post #681

pierat wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the saying... "My body, My choice" ? Well, some people will choose, willingly, to waste their life away living on the streets from one high to the next. The difference between most types of poverty and this, is that they *chose* this path. Bodily autonomy has powerful upsides, as well as downsides. Here's one of the downsides. If they wanted to 'get out', I'd be there to help them if I knew them. But they have…

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I know plenty of people who still have not taken a COVID-19 vaccination, so what are you on about? You were welcome not to take it and to also not participate in public life while there was an ongoing pandemic.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#687

Post by poopbutt7 » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 2:51 AM UTC

redog wrote: post #653

K0balt wrote: post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

How old are you?

38

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#688

Post by ClumsyPilot » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 2:51 AM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #668

oldpmfan wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. Germany for example is pretty shameless beyond the shame border in USA. To give you a few maybe extreme examples (which does not apply to all people in Germany and not all this examples are sexual): Mixed saunas, swinger clubs, open relationships, no shame on being naked in designated nudity areas, topless DJs, a naked women is not a big skandal etc. Yet Germany does not have the drug problems which Or…

Your response misses the target the parent was getting at. There are laws that constrain behavior in public places derived from the taboos of the past. This is what you are referring to when you talk about limits to nudity and such. These laws may derive from shame culture of the past, but they have modern relevance largely due to the existence of laws. There's another form of shame culture that isn't codified into l…

It is not, in fact, different at all. Being seen naked in public affects your status. Being seen consuming drugs affects your status. All shame is, is degradation of your status.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#689

Post by one_level_deep » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 2:55 AM UTC

PM_me_your_math wrote: post #681

pierat wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the saying... "My body, My choice" ? Well, some people will choose, willingly, to waste their life away living on the streets from one high to the next. The difference between most types of poverty and this, is that they *chose* this path. Bodily autonomy has powerful upsides, as well as downsides. Here's one of the downsides. If they wanted to 'get out', I'd be there to help them if I knew them. But they have…

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Big government is bad.

Unless there is a book, drug, or out-group we can use big government to control.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#690

Post by nmfisher » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 2:56 AM UTC

flycaliguy wrote: post #666

oldpmfan wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. Germany for example is pretty shameless beyond the shame border in USA. To give you a few maybe extreme examples (which does not apply to all people in Germany and not all this examples are sexual): Mixed saunas, swinger clubs, open relationships, no shame on being naked in designated nudity areas, topless DJs, a naked women is not a big skandal etc. Yet Germany does not have the drug problems which Or…

I’ve been shamed for j-walking in Germany. Sorry, you didn’t debunk anything you just invited a bunch of puritanical nonsense to the nude beach.

Me too, but that goes to prove OP's point. Jay-walking isn't just a crime, it's basically a social faux in Germany, which is why it doesn't happen that often.