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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

cnbc.com

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#681

Post by kube-system »

diebeforei485 wrote: post #190
buildbot wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It involves a safety system! That needs to be tracked publicly and updated! Nothing more than an OTA - does not mean much when everything is fly by wire and a bug could mean your car does not stop accelerating or something.

Recall implies something being returned. This should be called a mandatory software patch, or something like that. The problem is Tesla owners repeatedly see "recall" to mean "software update", so this might lead to a lot of confusion if a physical recall is actually required in the future.

Software recalls are nothing new. This particular use of the word “recall” refers to the legal process used by regulators to mandate a fix to a product.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#682

Post by monissiddiqui »

philosopher1234 wrote: post #640
panick21_ wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reducing the number of cars on the road seem to be the best solution. No actually its actually not. Less concession in a system that depends on concession for safety will lead to more accident not less. That is what was shown during Covid, less driving, but accidents per mile went up. So yes, of course public transport, bikes are great, but if you don't fix the underlying problem in the road system, you are gone ha…

What is the underlying problem? I keep looking for it in your comments

Not GP, but the underlying problem to me is repeat zero-sum interactions in a crony capitalism based system. All the shit stems from the winners that emerge from these repeated games making short term decisions to either allow them to exit or play again.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#683

Post by xyzelement »

jlv2 wrote: post #154

There really needs to be a distinction between an actual recall (my Model S had one to change the latch on the frunk) and this type of "recall" that is nothing more than an OTA software update.

I agree with you and I think the responses you are getting aren't helpful. Sure this is technically a recall but:

Customers aren't dealing with inconvenience of having to bring their vehicle in / not having it for a while.

And Tesla is not incurring the cost of physically handling and fixing 360k cars.

So while it's technically a recall, the impact on the consumer and manufacturer is very different than what the word brings to mind.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#684

Post by stefan_ »

Kranar wrote: post #658
stefan_ wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question you need to be asking is how many of these safety events they have swept under the rug because a fix is always "just an over the air software update" away. This recall only happened because, god forbid, the NHTSA got off its ass and actually tested something.

>This recall only happened because, god forbid, the NHTSA got off its ass and actually tested something. Where did you find this info? The article says it was Tesla that did a voluntary recall. The NHTSA was not the one who did any testing and was not involved in the decision. The report, which is linked in the article is authored by Tesla with no involvement from NHTSA. If I am misinterpreting something I thank you…

Per the chronology:

- On January 25, 2023 [..] NHTSA advised Tesla that it had identified potential concerns related to certain operational characteristics of FSD Beta in four specific roadway environments [..] NHTSA requested that Tesla address these concerns by filing a recall notice.

- In the following days, NHTSA and Tesla met numerous times to discuss the Agency’s concerns and Tesla’s proposed over-the-air (“OTA”) improvements in response.

- On February 7, 2023, while not concurring with the agency’s analysis, Tesla decided to administer a voluntary recall out of an abundance of caution

So yes, it was voluntary in the sense of "you don't want us to force you to do it" and it was indeed the NHTSA testing.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#685

Post by monissiddiqui »

eternityforest wrote: post #670
panick21_ wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I disagree. If someone is a bad driver, and causing crashes, we don't say "we need to improve the road system". Well yes, and that is literally exactly the problem. That is exactly why its so unsafe in the US. Because instead of building a safe system everything is blamed on people. In countries that take road safety seriously, every crash is analyzed and often the road system is changed to make sure it does not ha…

America hates any solution to a problem that doesn't involve training individuals to act differently. I constantly hear people who want warning labels gone and periodic PSAs against mixing bleach and ammonia removed, people who don't want mandatory baby left in a hot car detectors, people who hate OSHA, etc. We think the solution should always be human. That the way to solve climate change is homesteads, the solution…

Positive sum games >>> zero sum games. The solipsistic individualistic mindset stems from the zero-sum game system IMO and that's a larger social and biological issue.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#686

Post by jjcon »

super_flanker wrote: post #627
jjcon wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla publishes their safety data quarterly no need for your many assumptions and speculations - Teslas are already much safer than the average driver, especially when autopilot is on https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

Autopilot is not FSD, this report is clearly about Autopilot, they haven't mentioned anything about FSD in it.

FSD is an extension of the autopilot capability and the autopilot capability has proven extremely safe. As soon as there is statistically enough data they will release FSD numbers too but that means tens of millions of miles logged on roads since crashes are generally uncommon

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#687

Post by fallingknife »

bischofs wrote: post #486
JoshCole wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly feel people ought to have these discussions while consistently citing actual data sources relevant to the discussion. For example, did you predict, based on the speculation of Tesla being incompetent with regard to safety, that they have the lowest probability of injury scores of any car manufacturer? Because they do. Did you predict, based on speculation about Elon Musk's incompetence in predicting that s…

A system that protects 400 people but kills 1 is not a system that I want on public roads because I don't want to be in the 1 - Elon and the children of Elon are basically making the assumption that everyone is okay with this. The probability of an accident for any driver assistance system will ALWAYS be lower than a human driver - but that doesn't mean the system is safe for use with the general public! People like…

> People like me are not advocating for "killing people"

If you are advocating against a system that protects 400 people and kills one, you are advocating for killing people.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#688

Post by rootusrootus »

SomaticPirate wrote: post #498
orthecreedence wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're actually serious about this, we should get rid of roads altogether and replace them with rail tracks. That solves 95% of the automation problem anyway.

US passenger rail is unsafe. We have no way near the level of sophistication of European passenger rail transport. We have a significantly higher number of derailments. Even the worst European rail is more safe than US rail.

Europe has more railroad deaths than the US. Try again.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#689

Post by rootusrootus »

vardump wrote: post #678
esalman wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some manufacturers hold off on newer, untested tech for years before adding that to their vehicles. This is what happens when safely is a priority. That's why I bought/will keep buying Toyota/Lexus.

Euro NCAP etc. seem to classify Teslas as (some of) the safest vehicles on roads. https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model+y/46618 Same for NHTSA: https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2022/TESLA/MODEL%2525203/4%252...

Because they have a lower center of gravity and good crash structure. These are good things. But avoiding the accident in the first place significantly reduces the need to test that crashworthiness.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#690

Post by rootusrootus »

mcguire wrote: post #496
JoshCole wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly feel people ought to have these discussions while consistently citing actual data sources relevant to the discussion. For example, did you predict, based on the speculation of Tesla being incompetent with regard to safety, that they have the lowest probability of injury scores of any car manufacturer? Because they do. Did you predict, based on speculation about Elon Musk's incompetence in predicting that s…

As any Tesla supporter will tell you, Autopilot != FSD. (Is Autopilot still limited to divided, limited access highways? Those are significantly safer than other roadways.)

> Is Autopilot still limited to divided, limited access highways

No. Was it ever? All you need is a piece of road that has something which appears to be lane lines. The road to my house is usable despite having no actual paint striping because it happens to have a crack that runs fairly straight up one side and was filled with tar. So the camera thinks it's a lane line. Ta-da!

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