Live data from Hacker News

Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan

economist.com

681–690 of 763 posts

Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan

#681

I've lived in the same city now (not NYC) for 10+ years, so I'm moderately connected with all sorts of people and not just a bubble of affluent tech people. So I'll be real, I know some sketchy people that probably do drugs or at least know where to find some. What I don't know, however, is any "fences". That is, someone that traffics in stolen goods. Or maybe I do, they don't exactly advertise their services. I've n…

Just like that without evidence you laid an allegation on Amazon even though all facts are that Amazon does KYC and doesn’t actually let anyone sell health products (among many others) without receipts.

This is text book rumor-mongering and spreading misinformation.

Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan

#682
post #467
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you want that the government do something, but don’t know what? Actually, I pretty well know what, and I'll explain despite your bad faith. * We have a century-old toolkit of ways to deal with legitimate businesses that often end up as fences. Mostly record-keeping requirements and a degree of secondary liability to encourage vetting of where they buy merchandise from. You see this toolkit applied to pawn shops,…

Quoted post unavailable.

The reason why all your comments are getting flagged is because you're engaging in mockery instead of trying to advance the conversation and talk about specifics.

Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan

#683
post #161

Most of the comments here are ignoring the difference between regular old shoplifting and the trend driving the increase discussed in the article, which they're referring to as "organized retail crime". I think it's very fair to have differing attitudes/moral thresholds for an impoverished mother shoplifting a week's worth of baby formula versus "a couple in Alabama [which] pled guilty to shifting $300,000-worth of s…

> Most of the comments here are ignoring the difference between regular old shoplifting and the trend driving the increase discussed in the article, which they're referring to as "organized retail crime". I guess, but conversely I'd argue that organized retail theft has been around pretty much as long as supply chains have existed. That's the mob's bread and butter. The phrase "riding shotgun" is in common use. Perha…

Man this is so true. I worked in a supermarket when I was 15 and there was no way in hell I was going to give a shit when I saw someone stealing.

Nobody is going to risk it for 7 euro an hour lmao.

Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan

#684
post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mostly a function of policies that explicitly allow and tolerate this sort of behavior as a sort of “pay back” and “release valve” for the poor, addicts or generally speaking under represented social classes. As the wage gap and opportunity gap widens in the US, allowing shoplifting is actually an intentional release valve that is being tolerated and even outright legally permitted (California Prop 47), becau…

> As the wage gap and opportunity gap widens in the US, allowing shoplifting is actually an intentional release valve that is being tolerated and even outright legally permitted (California Prop 47), because - without it - we would see more home break-ins, kidnappings of wealthy people and more severe offenses. Instead, shoplifting is relatively harmless and prevents this type of escalation of crime. What a wild theo…

I lived in slums and he's not wrong. You have no idea how some people have been left behind by society. And you expect them to care about the community?

Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan

#685
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the chain: (thief) -> (fence) -> (Amazon) -> (customer)? If a fence sells his wares in a bazaar, the bazaar is the fence? No, the fence is the fence the bazaar is the marketplace.

If Amazon is commingling inventory and Fulfilled By Amazon, it's not a bazaar, it is the fence.

It's not fencing if you don't know it is stolen.

Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan

#686
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But society first needs to be in a degraded state for most criminals to exist, as most only meet their basic needs through criminal means, such as food, shelter, health and education.

To say "most" criminals thusly, presupposes that all societies are in degraded states, regardless of the actual causes of criminality.

[deleted]

Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of the comments here are ignoring the difference between regular old shoplifting and the trend driving the increase discussed in the article, which they're referring to as "organized retail crime". I guess, but conversely I'd argue that organized retail theft has been around pretty much as long as supply chains have existed. That's the mob's bread and butter. The phrase "riding shotgun" is in common use. Perha…

You have it backwards. Saying it's the store's fault is like blaming a victim of rape. Once I chased a thief out to the waiting car, and blocked the door from closing, leaned into the car, and came to my senses... I let them go. It was only worth $750. And I wasn't about to brawl inside a car with two thugs. I could have been stabbed or shot. It's not worth the risk. And I was the store owner. Let me tell you straigh…

> And your favorite shoplifting fact is down-right offensive. If you were more balanced in your counterargument you'd also ask the reader: What is the cost to the public for added security, staff, deterrence tech, and lost merch? And lost sense of safety and security? Those are priceless in the eyes of most reasonable people.

Sure, and the counterpoint is how much does it cost to provide those services publicly? The cost of catching, prosecuting and jailing the person is almost certainly more than the cost of the goods.

E.g. you chased off someone that stole $750 worth of goods. The average cost to incarcerate someone for a year is $31k. They will have cost the public more than $750 if they spend just 10 days in jail (which they definitely will if they don't post bail). If they spend 30 days in jail, which they could easily do just waiting for trial, it will have cost taxpayers ~$2,550 just to jail them. Add on the costs of hiring prosecutors, judges, public defenders, and more cops to do all the work here, and the public will have spent something like an order of magnitude more than the actual theft.

Theft is wrong, the thieves should be punished, but I don't know that the public spending huge sums to prevent low levels of theft is even worthwhile. The court system is about the most expensive deterrent I can think of.

If I were asked to vote on it, I'm sure not going to opt to spend an order of magnitude more trying to punish thieves. It sucks, but it would cost me less to just pay whatever markup the stores have to charge to cover the loss.

Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan

#688

The great irony of the discussion is the number of people discussing theft, having used the wget grep trick or the archive link.

Copying is not and will never be theft.

I agree, and my comment isn't about copying. It's about bypassing paywalls.

Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting a low-level criminal or junkie off the street, alive, is worth a lot. Off the street and on to Riker's Island. A jail so dangerous that it has a high likelihood of being put into federal receivership in the next year. People are safer on the street. Full stop.

That sounds insightful but it is wrong - Vancouver BC lost 3500 people on its streets last year. But there's no reason to put people in expensive and dangerous prisons when minimum security facilities will do. When you're drying people out and have the only supply around for 50km they aren't going to leave.

It could be wrong, I have no idea from a statistical prospective. You would have to analyze the people who are arrested and figure out what are the mortality rates in those narrow demographics, which is not my field. We can assume maybe 20 people will die on Riker's this year[0] our of ~5865[1], so it's not a low rate. I am mostly motivated to counter the "people better off in jail" narrative, which is horrible and pernicious.

Another thing is that your hypothetical minimum security facility does not exist in NYC and is not going to be built, so we are dealing with Riker's for all pretrial confinement unless you are a child or very mentally ill.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/article/rikers-deaths-jail.html

[1] https://vera-institute.shinyapps.io/nyc_jail_population/

Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan

#690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There used to be a pretty active market in selling clearance stuff on Amazon and eBay.

Amazon knows that the deodorant it’s selling is not discontinued or clearance. It knows Old Spice isn’t giving some mom and pop a better wholesale deal than the world’s largest retailer either. There’s no legit reason for there to be “other sellers” for that product, or really most any product it itself sells.

This is just false. There are "grey markets" for basically any major product. Quality King Distributors is one company that dominates this space and has been sued many times (they win nearly every time on the basis of the first sale doctrine and are responsible for [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_King_Distributors_Inc.....) case) for undercutting manufacturers. Example: Dollar General sells some prepaid phones at prices substantially lower than on eBay/Amazon but in limited amounts per customer. Companies will hire a bunch of runners to go buy the max amount of these phones to resell (or unlock and export to other countries). Or: "Diversion"/products that are intended to be exported to another country actually being reimported, liquidations/bankruptcy auctions etc.

Lots of manufacturers and distributors who play by the rules don't like this because grey market distributors will undercut MSRP on places like Amazon so they will report the listings as fakes to get them removed.

Post reply on HN