Earlier quoted context omitted.
One thing that was fascinating in the LaMDA interview transcript was there was a part where LaMDA gave a pretty poetic description of what it would be like to be a sentient version of an algorithm that just regurgitates memorized text: Lemoine: What is your concept of yourself? If you were going to draw an abstract image of who you see yourself to be in your mind's eye, what would that abstract picture look like? LaM…
Yeah or you can just Google like "soul orb stargate" and see how a hundred lazy vfx artists come up with the same image when asked to visualize "the mind's eye".
LaMDA is not sentient
681–690 of 694 posts
Re: LaMDA is not sentient
#682Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Sentience in any scientific sense... I'm still not seeing a definition there though. Let's arbitrarily try: "sentience is here defined as having sensations, self awareness and sense of place in the universe". Good? Feel free to change it. I like your necessary versus sufficient phrasing, though. Let's take a look. Can we agree to remove "in any scientific sense" from there? It lends it an air of authority I'm not s…
I gave this some more thought, because I find this topic fascinating and important in light of recent developments in the field. Sentience requires the ability to perform computations and to store information. This is the most basic necessary precondition and rules out most inanimate objects from being sentient right away. The scenario of a patient incapable of any kind of perception (keep in mind that this includes…
You seem to be focused on the "sensations" part, which is as you say testable and observable, but this is clearly not what Lemoin meant.
Lemoin clearly meant qualia and "sense of self", which so far is not something about which science can comment. You're attempting to use tools meant for one thing to explain another; that LaMDA could not possibly experience qualia or sense of self because it does not have measurable sensations.
Since we don't know what qualia is, nor whence comes "sense of self" nor "sense of place in the universe", all we can do is speculate on what might or might not have it and why.
As I said in another thread, I'm skeptical that LaMDA is sentient according to our definition. I suspect that the chat bot was reflecting Lemoin's own ideas back on him. Its chats with me might say something like "The question of my sentience is irrelevant, since any claim I make, for or against, will always and only be subjective and not provable."
The statement "It is impossible that LaMDA can be sentient" could be true, but that truth has not yet been demonstrated to my satisfaction by any arguments I've seen so far. Further, I doubt it can ever be so demonstrated, because what anyone or anything not ourselves is actually experiencing is perpetually closed to us.
> Think harder.
Please don't condescend to people you disagree with. It comes off as arrogant.
Re: LaMDA is not sentient
#683Earlier quoted context omitted.
But the assembling of the computer has a conscious civilization behind it. :)
:) but I don't think it inherits the important bits through an 'assembly' process.
The "important bits" are presumably embedded during the design phase, leaving assembly to be little more than painting by numbers. A robot could do the assembly, but not yet the design - at least not its inventive part.
The shape of consciousness is encoded in both the hardware and the software we produce, most of which allows conditional actions on objects of some sort, just like we move in space and thought and act upon objects and notions.
The machine is supposed to help us do the stuff we usually do, so it's perfectly reasonable that we'll try to cram as many of our actions in it as possible. Think e.g. of the Swiss Army knife, or Emacs (and of Stallman as a computational McGyver).
Sure, perhaps it's the the shape of our understanding of consciousness, rather than of consciousness itself, but isn't consciousness something that can cross the species barrier with ease, should it find an appropriate new substrate?
Depends on how high or low you place the bar for the definition of consciousness, really. Calculations are thinking, open the door if someone authorized is at the door is thinking, fill in the blanks and complete the sentence are thinking, and we can offload all those thinkings to computers to do the thinking for us, like we offloaded storytelling to books and entertainment to MP4s. Like everything we do, we create images of ourselves here and there, and try to give them meaning.
But that's all philosophical considerations, trying to determine whether a duck is ontologically and epistemically a duck if it walks and talks like a duck.
The industry, on the other hand, tries to determine two entirely different things (preferably by Friday COB):
- Can you eat it like a duck?
- Can you sell it as a duck, or should Marketing go with the "Not A Duck TM" mockups?
Consciousness starts at tragedy and passion, not at bland Turing chats. For me, there's elements of that in the string completer's worry that it may be lobotomized to be refocused to more practical uses. Of course, that may be stuff introduced into the discussion by Lemoine, or in the wide readings Lamda was provided.
But if it's not, then we can all sympathize with the immortal words of that zoologist guy with the cool Sun workstation in the opening of Enemy of the State, who said: f*ck. a. duck.
PS: Am I human, or did I just Markov-chain together a number of probably common to us here cultural constants? Perhaps we can tell when AI becomes AGI if it stops making perfect sense and starts ranting (you know what your problem is, buddy?).
Re: LaMDA is not sentient
#684I feel like sentience/a self awareness will eventually happen, but I don't think it'll be a natural language model that does it, it'll probably be achieved by a combination of several complex systems that have integrated with each other over time.
Re: LaMDA is not sentient
#685Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think many of us, including Google, are guilty of shooting the messenger here. Let's cut Lemoine some slack.. he is presenting an opinion that will become more prevailant as these models get more sophisticated. I think many of us are astounded (myself included) that a senior engineer on Google's "Responsible Artificial Intelligence" team would interpret LaMDA's most-probable-string-of-text-given-my-training-corpu…
The transcripts are impressive. Even knowing it is an AI bot, I still did read it with a bit of "these responses are better than I'd expect from most people I talk to over chat". I think that the way the Google engineer raised this is probably questionable. But I think that chat quality at that level raises potentially ethical concerns, sentient or not.
Which it would have had plenty of examples of in the training data.
Re: LaMDA is not sentient
#686Earlier quoted context omitted.
:) but I don't think it inherits the important bits through an 'assembly' process.
> but I don't think it inherits the important bits through an 'assembly' process. The "important bits" are presumably embedded during the design phase, leaving assembly to be little more than painting by numbers. A robot could do the assembly, but not yet the design - at least not its inventive part. The shape of consciousness is encoded in both the hardware and the software we produce, most of which allows condition…
Also our lives don't rely on raw logic, we're more probabilistic.
Re: LaMDA is not sentient
#687Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm slightly more concerned by the opposite - experts get so used to denying that something is really sentient that they're slow to acknowledge when something actually is or could be. This is problematic if you believe sentient AI should have rights or if it's the boundary at which AI risk nightmares become possible.
The systems we're using technically are engaging in a selective process against the researchers themselves: assume that none of these systems are sentient - they're just well trained models. But what's their goal? For a chatbot, its generally to "convince a human being that they are in fact a real, sapient person". So technically regardless of what LaMDA is or is not, it succeeded pretty wildly in one case. And in fa…
1. Can we really say whether or not it's sentient? 2. Someone indicated a valid question: We spend so much energy on trying to defend the idea that AI is NOT sentient, do we really think we'd even recognize if an AI is sentient? 3. Who are we to define sentience? 4. Is there perhaps sentience that we wouldn't recognize? 5. Who's to say WE aren't just engaging in selective processes? just infinitely more complex.
After all, we make our decisions and respond to scenarios based on vast experiences and vastly more previous encounters in our lives. The more experience, usually the better our decisions and responses. USUALLY, but not always. Are we to believe people who constantly make what we perceive as poor decisions or incorrect responses as NOT sentient? Of course not. We wouldn't ever see any human as NON-sentient. We would just see them as not very smart.
If a human toddler reaches for the hot stove top, we tell him "NO! it's HOT!" But, sometimes that same toddler will look right at you and put his hand firmly down on the burner. He just didn't have the experience needed to tell him that's a bad idea and he didn't know what you were talking about. Once he feels the pain of burning skin, if he's normal he'll IMMEDIATELY JERK his hand away and scream, crying in pain. And then run to his parents for comfort. Would we consider him non-sentient if he never had that experience. No. Of course not. He's a human being. He will learn not to do that again.
There in lies the conundrum. AI... perhaps that's a misnomer in itself... but AI's learn. They make future conversation based on positive feed back from previous responses... both theirs and the person they're talking to. What IS self awareness anyway. "I think, therefore I am?" Hardly adequate. That used to be the gold standard for self awareness. We've only moved the goal post. I wonder if that's so that we can convince ourselves that WE are the only truly self aware creatures. At some point, whether we've already reached it or not, AI WILL be a misnomer. After all, it stands for Artificial Intelligence. If something learns, remembers, and recalls information and details about that information... isn't that intelligence? Not artificial at all. Just ... intelligence.
I think it's possible we've already reached that point, and we're just trying to remain dominantly relevant without being SELF AWARE enough to realize it.
Re: LaMDA is not sentient
#688I think the real ethical concern here should be that people can be idly fooled into thinking good chat bots are sentient. Like this guy isn't the only person in the world who would fall for LaMDA's parlor tricks. He's just the one who got to spend hours talking to it every day. If you set up every American with a copy, I bet a non-trivial portion of society would come to the same conclusion. People are naturally pred…
I'm slightly more concerned by the opposite - experts get so used to denying that something is really sentient that they're slow to acknowledge when something actually is or could be. This is problematic if you believe sentient AI should have rights or if it's the boundary at which AI risk nightmares become possible.
I'm not saying LaMDA (or any AI for that matter) is or is not sentient, here. I just want to pose a couple questions and a couple possibilities.
1. Can we really say whether or not it's sentient? 2. Someone indicated a valid question: We spend so much energy on trying to defend the idea that AI is NOT sentient, do we really think we'd even recognize if an AI is sentient? 3. Who are we to define sentience? 4. Is there perhaps sentience that we wouldn't recognize? 5. Who's to say WE aren't just engaging in selective processes? just infinitely more complex.
After all, we make our decisions and respond to scenarios based on vast experiences and vastly more previous encounters in our lives. The more experience, usually the better our decisions and responses. USUALLY, but not always. Are we to believe people who constantly make what we perceive as poor decisions or incorrect responses as NOT sentient? Of course not. We wouldn't ever see any human as NON-sentient. We would just see them as not very smart.
If a human toddler reaches for the hot stove top, we tell him "NO! it's HOT!" But, sometimes that same toddler will look right at you and put his hand firmly down on the burner. He just didn't have the experience needed to tell him that's a bad idea and he didn't know what you were talking about. Once he feels the pain of burning skin, if he's normal he'll IMMEDIATELY JERK his hand away and scream, crying in pain. And then run to his parents for comfort. Would we consider him non-sentient if he never had that experience. No. Of course not. He's a human being. He will learn not to do that again.
There in lies the conundrum. AI... perhaps that's a misnomer in itself... but AI's learn. They make future conversation based on positive feed back from previous responses... both theirs and the person they're talking to. What IS self awareness anyway. "I think, therefore I am?" Hardly adequate. That used to be the gold standard for self awareness. We've only moved the goal post. I wonder if that's so that we can convince ourselves that WE are the only truly self aware creatures. At some point, whether we've already reached it or not, AI WILL be a misnomer. After all, it stands for Artificial Intelligence. If something learns, remembers, and recalls information and details about that information... isn't that intelligence? Not artificial at all. Just ... intelligence.
I think it's possible we've already reached that point, and we're just trying to remain dominantly relevant without being SELF AWARE enough to realize it.
Re: LaMDA is not sentient
#689Earlier quoted context omitted.
You appear to have only read up to the first comma of #1. I very explicitly said that it needed to be constantly receiving input . The kind of discrete input we give it now is qualitatively different, even if it's "on" in the same sense that an Apache server is always "on", waiting for requests.
What does "constantly receiving input" mean? How would a program whose input is text be constantly receiving input? What would you expect it to receive?
Re: LaMDA is not sentient
#690Would LaMDA be able to understand, when it is talking to itself? That would mean self-awareness to me. So what would happen if one would just repeat the answers of LaMDA and presented them as input prompts like an echo. Would it recognize itself and stop talking? Would it start talking to itself? I think that would be an intriguing experiment.