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Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

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Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#681

Post by closeparen »

manuelabeledo wrote: post #572
maratc wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remote fans force everyone to use tools to accommodate their remoteness. We used to have a stand-up meeting each morning at a time "when everyopne's arrived" and we used to have a whiteboard on the wall with the most current tasks. None of this can work with even one remote worker, so it's gone to scheduled Zooms, online task managers, and endless Slack messages.

In exchange, now you have proper record of everything said and done. I love the fact that I can always go back to Slack and say “See? This is what we agreed upon”, instead of having to recall the specifics of a meeting where notes weren’t taken in detail.

I don’t find any difference in the record-keeping of remote vs. in person meetings. The record button is available to both, but the resulting video files just as unwieldy, and Zoom’s transcripts are garbage.

Nor do I see any increased willingness to hash out complex issues in writing. The moment things get even slightly complex in a thread, it’s “let’s hop on a call.”

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#682

Post by ilaksh »

kkfx wrote: post #548

There are few points I do not see much discussed so far: - remote work, for jobs eligible to such model, does need a paradigm shift, it's not sustainable trying mimicking the in-office model in a "virtual" world. I see almost no discussion about that, especially in work division, outcome measuring, hw&sw vs hosted platforms etc terms. IMVHO that's a hyper central point to mainstream WFH for all eligible jobs; - remot…

> real technical, political, philosophical discussions

Do you know of another good place for that aside from HN?

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#683

Post by msbarnett »

SheinhardtWigCo wrote: post #447
fivre wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company doesn't want to give anyone a raise. They are not happy to give anyone a raise. Companies do not willingly increase their costs, full stop. You could maybe make an argument that companies may increase wages for high performers for retention reasons, because needing to replace valuable employees is a large, if somewhat intangible cost, but that's pretty iffy. Companies are made up of and managed by humans,…

> Large wage increases based on expertise happen because you're able to better sell yourself to _another_ company when changing jobs. In that case, instead of banding together with Joe Useless to strong-arm the company into setting money on fire (from management's perspective), you're better off changing companies as frequently as the market will tolerate.

False dichotomy. You can do both, and an industry-wide effort to exercise our collective power would likely increase the salaries obtained via either route.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#684

Post by activitypea »

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

Despite the horrendous tone and attitude, you're 100% right. I prefer working from the office because I get to be less lonely for a third of my waking life, probably in part because I can rarely get that kind of social fullfillment from my private life. I'm just not quite sure what's so bad about not wanting to be unconditionally alone 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#685

Post by alimov »

Closi wrote: post #536
malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Warning: Hot Take. I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work…

From your response I would guess that you don’t have kids or dogs, would I be correct?

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#686

Post by Aeolun »

fivre wrote: post #164
Aeolun wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have much more bargaining power, yes. But you’ll also be bargaining as part of a group that includes Joe Useless, who sits in the next cubicle over and ostensibly fulfills the same role as you. The company may be happy to give you a 10% raise, but they’d rather lower JU’s salary by 10%, so they won’t budge on your demands for an increase, since it’d also apply to him.

The company doesn't want to give anyone a raise. They are not happy to give anyone a raise. Companies do not willingly increase their costs, full stop. You could maybe make an argument that companies may increase wages for high performers for retention reasons, because needing to replace valuable employees is a large, if somewhat intangible cost, but that's pretty iffy. Companies are made up of and managed by humans,…

The problem is that you are more likely to get a wage increase. Not a wage increase that moves the needle for you individually.

I love seeing the “union fought for years, after many strikes employees ‘win’ and get a 5% wage increase over the next 4 years” news articles, but they never strike me as something that I’d want to apply to me.

Certainly my company is increasing wages for high performers. They may not be happy to do so, but they’ll do it to retain talent they desperately need.

I imagine this would be different if the sector I was in was different, but right now, for software development, it doesn’t make any sense to me. There’s too much variation in skill levels to collectively bargain for anything.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#687

Post by alistairSH »

otterley wrote: post #365
thewebcount wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because people have responsibilities outside of work. People have children and spouses with chronic conditions that require them to be available at a moment’s notice to deal with, for example. And it’s not going to change just because some manager at ConHugeCo wants people back in the office. I cannot take a job without knowing that I’ll be allowed to work a particular way for the foreseeable future, as it just…

I meant “why do you expect anyone to be able to foresee the future?”

I don’t either, but they could have at least been open about “we’re WFH today but going hybrid as soon as COVID allows.” Instead they waffled and hedged around and wouldn’t commit.

Add in several other factors… 1. the VP and extended team I would have been working with was in Seattle and this position was in VA. 2. There’s an AWS office down the street from my house but they were 100% non-committal about the position being located there (vs the new Arlington HQ2). 3. Would have been a new team with lots of new hires, so I could have just hired them locally (if deemed necessary, though I’ve managed remotely for years now with success so seems silly to me).

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#688

Post by apple4ever »

code_runner wrote: post #603
Closi wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Warning: Hot Take. I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work…

I agree with both of these hot takes… I love a hybrid approach because I really enjoy the random conversations that crop up in the office… but my social life is so much improved outside of work in the last year or so that everything about physically being present feels tedious. I have a coworker I call to talk shop for a few minutes and then bullshit for another 15-20 minutes almost daily when I’m wfh. I’m very stron…

I agree. I think the hybrid approach is the best. It lets both sides (for the most part) have their cake and eat it too.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#689

Post by twayt »

Closi wrote: post #631
twayt wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think your post paints a false dichotomy Nope. Never said it is "always a choice between working from home and commuting huge distances to an office in a city you hate". It is a counterpoint to the original comment that hypothesizes that most people who enjoy working from home do so due to some social deficit. > people who don't find it as easy as others to form relationships with colleagues in real life If you r…

> Second, I am not going to take it the wrong way, but your comment makes it seem like you have some insight into a complete stranger's life without any information to go off of. I mean it was just a hunch, but looking at your comment history definitely implies it too. For instance, while your response states that you are comfortable getting lunch your post history says this: > Feel like a social failure during lunch…

> Which implies the opposite.

You have no way of determining that unless you're in the same environment. For someone who's usually successful socially, it is an utter shame to have to sit through the lunch and be forced to listen to a couple of idiots hopped who can't shut up. Would you want to be in that situation?

The other two comments have no bearing whatsoever on your point. The first one describes what it is like to be distracted. Replace attractive coworker with anything else.

The second one is a natural response to the frictions present in real life.

Sounds like you're desperately trying to cast someone into a role so that you can feel better about yourself. You sound like you might have social deficits you're trying to overcome yourself based on your comments that show a lack of understanding of what socializing at work feels like for a lot of people.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#690

Post by twayt »

sinsterizme wrote: post #664
twayt wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing yourself to get your social interaction requirements met at work isn't ideal. It is like trying to get your protein requirements met from potatoes. Yes, you can if you force yourself and try really hard. However, it is much more efficient and pain-free to get it from a protein shake. In this context, it means using the time you save with working from home and using it to meet people interested in the things y…

I don’t see what’s so bad about it. Half of my waking hours are spent working, a lot of the other half are spent eating, working out, and relaxing. Am I supposed to spend an hour a day hanging out with people after work? Not only does that sound exhausting, it doesn’t seem like enough if that’s my main social interaction. At work, there is a shared goal and a community that I can be a part of, and it’s there for me f…

Find hobbies other than working. You can use the weekend to do that.

The reason socializing at work sucks is because it is not a very natural environment to make friends. Alliances, yes but friends are harder. Even if you make genuine friends with someone there, if you're working with them directly, their career will take precedence over you. Most people are skeptical of their coworkers and it is a constant power dynamic to prove one's competence and status.

Much easier to find true friends outside of work.

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