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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#681

Post by fma »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593
sparrc wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

That was probably accurate "back in the day". My wife owns/runs an after school learning center and I can say that 1st/2nd generation take extra-curricular activities very seriously. That is not to say academic is out the window, but academics is not the only interest.

As a matter of fact - I wrote a letter of recommendation for someone to volunteer at the library. Due to the competitive nature (I live in an area with lots of 1st/2nd generation, especially Indians)...she did not get a position. Imagine competing to work for free!

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#682

Post by saila »

singlow wrote: post #660
dangle1 wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe some impostor, but at the time, there was a penalty for guessing. Between my risk-taking personality and the sense that I wasn't going to get out of the minor leagues by watching pitches go by, I 'swung' at every question and apparently got a lot of questions right that I couldn't actually explain why the answer was correct. Arguably, someone who knew more than I did but was too hesitant to go out on a limb abo…

If your intuition allowed you to guess with a high enough success rate that it overcame the penalty then it is that intuition that gave you an advantage. You didn't just get lucky.

Being able to choose the correct answer in a test environment by process of elimination or similar methodology is a useful skill to have in some non-test circumstances, but it’s not a great test of domain knowledge.

Anecdote: I recently did some tests where I read a bunch of material before hand and used a combination of short term memory and multiple choice trickery to pass with flying colors, but I still don’t have any real knowledge of the subject area. I barely remember any of it, other than a few bits of jargon.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#683

Post by throwawaygh »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593
sparrc wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

> and not have to do any of the other trivial stuff that demonstrates that they can participate in the society in which they live

How many DFW public schools have cricket or kabaddi teams? How many bands and choirs play primarily non-European music?

Are you sure that these students are one dimensional boring test-takers with absolutely no interest in being part of their community? Could it possibly be that many are very active members of a vibrant and deeply rooted immigrant community, but that this community involvement doesn't show up because they aren't either playing in a football game or putting on a half time show for a foot ball game?

(I'm also deeply skeptical that participating in band, choir, extra-curricular activities, or sports is actually indicative of much of anything in terms of community participation... playing unorganized pick-up games with friends feels much more participatory than leveraging the well-oiled pre-college apparatus of an upper middle class neighborhood to check the "scholar-athlete" box.)

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#684

Post by mattcwilson »

certifiedrodent wrote: post #662
jacobr1 wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does testing higher than one's ability actually mean? I'm guessing either you think the test is an imperfect proxy for a different (more important) skill, or otherwise you have imposter syndrome.

In my case it means performing well under stress, having good time management, and skim reading quickly/effectively. All of these are real things that do matter, but they dramatically boost test scores.

Funny, I rely on those same skills in management all the time. So much so that I wish that the value of those skills, independent of educational subject matter, had been emphasized to me as a young person.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#685

Post by wutbrodo »

outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

May I ask on what basis you were against them? Was it just ignorance of the facts (like the canard that they just measure wealth), or did you change your opinion of something subjective?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#686

Post by davesque »

aj7 wrote: post #613
davesque wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course the real tragedy is that we fixate so much on college This is what gets me. The whole concept of college, and especially selective, high profile colleges such as Harvard, MIT, etc., seems antiquated and almost entirely manufactured at this point. It's artificially crafted scarcity designed to create a market and brand. I feel the true, primary function of these institutions is to give the rich and powerfu…

No no no. The thesis topics are in graduate schools are more cutting edge, and the opportunity to interact with real science as an undergraduate are invaluable. I would tend to agree that excelling at a second tier university with a comprehensive program is an acceptable start. It generally gets you to a higher level. Competitiveness is about speed. Anyone can look something up. It’s about knowing things right off th…

Wow, I didn't realize I was advocating for excess deaths. Thanks for clarifying that for the folks at home.

Maybe my point is more anecdotal than I realize. After all, I've never had a colleague from MIT who exhibiting any meaningful difference in characteristics that mattered. But at the same time, I resent being an unwitting participant in upholding MIT's legacy by being passed over for opportunities by people who are more credentialed and more well connected than me but otherwise the same in every way that counts. Maybe I belong on a different planet. I wonder sometimes. It seems my destiny has already been decided on this one.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#689

Post by throwawaygh »

darth_avocado wrote: post #602
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

>It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial stuff that demonstrates that they can participate in the society in which they live. So you're saying only studying and not doing anything else to eventually become a doctor that serves a community in Dallas doesn't demonstrate enough participation in society as…

> So you're saying only studying and not doing anything else to eventually become a doctor that serves a community in Dallas doesn't demonstrate enough participation in society as much as being able to play a sport?

To be fair, it is Texas. Plus, he also mentioned band. Someone needs to play in the halftime show, after all.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#690

Post by jp0d »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #639
jp0d wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Indian education system doesn't care about learning at all. It's all about scoring good grades and getting a job at the end. It's quite important as every individual needs to be able support themselves. However, it's really bad for learning. I'm a product of that. I've been struggling a lot with an online course from MIT but at least I'm enjoying learning a lot of stuff as I'm employed now. Physics and Mathematic…

>The Indian education system doesn't care about learning at all. Honestly, I think people from other countries get that impression about you guys too. I've been a part of multiple (honestly, quite racist) conversations where we just WTF over the fact that these guys have masters degrees but can't solve the most basic problem assigned to them.

Barring the racist part, I can imagine some of the situations that might have led to such conversations. My wife was working for the Covid vaccine deployment programme for one of the Australian states as a consultant from a respected company. The two guys employed by the state's government dept were utter clueless about almost everything. One was in charge of project management and the other was an architect. The architect didn't even know how to use a filter on an Excel spreadsheet! The level of incompetence was just unfathomable. Don't want to name the state as it might might lead to the two individuals!

But at the same time my wife and her team mates (A diverse team consisting of Caucasians, Indians and Filipinos (all Australians)) did deliver the project and helped the government at every step. So, I would argue that there are a lot of intelligent people that came out of the Indian education system, but the education system itself did fuck all for their success in life. There are also a lot of people with degrees, boasting very high GPAs, but with no analytical skills whatsoever! It's not only limited to Indian people in general. But the education system is indeed quite bad.

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