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More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

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Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#681

Post by mywittyname »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #666
mywittyname wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The department of education in the USA kind of does that too. The amount of government-backed loans a student can receive for undergrad is capped at ~$35,000 (it's unlimited for graduate school). It's also graduated, so a freshman can only receive ~$4,000 their first year, and it goes up from there. Grants are given to freshman to cover the shortfall. Also, students/parents are expected to contribute, based on househ…

> The amount of government-backed loans a student can receive for undergrad is capped at ~$35,000 (it's unlimited for graduate school). It's also graduated, so a freshman can only receive ~$4,000 their first year, and it goes up from there. I believe this only applies to the subsidized federal student loans that don't collect interest while you're in school. The limit on unsubsidized federal loans that start collecti…

https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/loans/subsidized...

Perhaps you were classified as a independent student?

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#683

Post by lapsedacademic »

hooande wrote: post #662
lapsedacademic wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stop this.... I question the statistical literacy... Ugh. Why? You asked for a statistically grounded conversation, so let's do that. Let's start, for example, with pdf page 25 (and surrounding context) of https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/causal_educ_earnings.p... The analysis done in that paper is a good starting point for a productive conversation. We could discuss the bounds on various coefficients and deci…

Section 3.6. "Family background" of the pdf you linked to discusses the impact that parent's educational attainment has on how much money someone earns as a result of going to college, not whether they attend college. It's not used as a control in a way that's relevant to this discussion. Do you have another study? Either way, it's a fact that parental income is the best predictor of future income. Not educational at…

> best predictor

But why? What are the CAUSAL relationships between parental earnings, educational attainment, and child earnings? The children of doctors are more likely to become doctors, but saying that educational attainment is therefore less related to doctoring than parental occupation is obviously a bit absurd. Just because a parent paves the path doesn't mean that educational attainment is irrelevant to walking that path. And anyone who makes it through med school and residency has the option to enjoy high earnings, regardless of parental income.

The MD example, for the curious and humble reader interested in Truth rather than Winning, makes it abundantly clear why section 3.6 of the linked paper asks a question that's directly relevant to untangling these causal links.

> Do you have another study?

There's an entire literature base on exactly this question. "lifetime earnings parental earnings education" returns 130K results on Google Scholar. But, to be blunt, I don't think you're interested in learning anything. I think you're interested in Winning the thread. So I'm not posting for your benefit; that would be futile. I'm posting for the benefit of intellectually curious readers.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#684

Post by rkk3 »

rootsudo wrote: post #571
emaginniss wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're way off on 3. You're saying that tuition alone at a state school costs $45k per semester, which would be $90k per year. This site says that the average in-state public school is ~$25k all-in for a year. That includes tuition, room and board, books and transportation. https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/average-cost-of-c...

That is not accurate at all https://admission.ucla.edu/tuition-aid/tuition-fees 56k 9 months. https://www.ohio.edu/financial-aid/cost 34k 9 months 9 months is considered 2 semesters. per semester. wouldn't consider ohio personally though. but beats your average by a good 30%. Not sure where it can get cheaper than Ohio.

But those are for out of state students. By your own links...

UCLA is ~36k all-in / per academic year for in state students Ohio is ~24k all in / per academic year for in state students

It's not cheap or something you can cover on a part time job anymore but its nowhere near the numbers you are citing.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#685

Post by ZephyrBlu »

balls187 wrote: post #670
indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

> 2) There are better options than college for many. I agree there are better options than college for many. Thought if I were a betting man, on average, College is the better decision. > One of my daughters did a six month digital marketing bootcamp. She made $45k year one, and a year later is the director of marketing at her company making over $100k/yr. I'm curious how old she was when she completed that bootcamp,…

Chances are she is working at a very small company, so "Director" doesn't carry much weight. Otherwise I would be similarly baffled.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#686

Post by endisneigh »

hooande wrote: post #669
endisneigh wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t say there’s a causal impact, I said that average college grads make more money.

The kid that's driving a new BMW at age 16 will make more money than everyone else too. Do you suggest that kids buy BMWs in order to increase their lifetime earning potential?

I don’t see the relevance - even among the poorest college grads have higher lifetime earnings:

https://research.upjohn.org/empl_research/vol23/iss3/1/

again, college grads make more money across all demographic groups. Not sure what you’re arguing

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#687

Post by abeppu »

skrbjc wrote: post #606
abeppu wrote: post #449

The bizarre thing with higher education costs that no one's really explained to me is why schools simultaneously spend more and more on administrators (who are full time staff), and push more and more teaching to adjuncts. The claim I've heard justifying the growth of administration staff is that regulatory compliance becomes more onerous over time. But no school is judged on their regulatory compliance. In industry,…

It’s interesting because universities over-produce academics for the number of tenure-track jobs available, so they then hire those phds back into adjunct positions, which is often the only academic job available to them, especially if they don’t want to move across the country to some small college in the middle of nowhere. So many phds just suck it up and take the adjunct jobs teaching undergrads. Actual professors…

But, isn't there a huge gap between:

A) tracking and reporting the diversity of your contractors (which I think a techie might accomplish with a google form and a spreadsheet),

B) "establish an office" that performs A,

C) a "$25 million dollar diversity department that hires nearly a hundred staff"?

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#688

Post by vkou »

01100011 wrote: post #628
tempest_ wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regards to 1 A lot of the trades are hard on your body. By the time you are 45-50 your knees could be wrecked and that makes it hard to do service work like electric/HVAC. There are an argument that desk work isnt healthy either but that is a different discussion.

As a 46 year old I agree, but I'll say that most tradesmen I knew have either moved on to owning/managing or have switched careers. Overall they've done very well. Also, IME, tradesmen always have the nicest houses regardless of income because they or someone they can trade with will do top quality work for barely any compensation.

> As a 46 year old I agree, but I'll say that most tradesmen I knew have either moved on to owning/managing or have switched careers. Overall they've done very well.

Suvivorship bias?

I imagine that those that are still in the trades are managers/owners. Those that have blown out knees, but don't have the skills to manage/own/washed out a decade ago... Are not.

There's not enough room in the trades for every person who did work in their 20s to manage/own in the 40s, unless you have a lot of attrition.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#689

Post by beepbooptheory »

ryan93 wrote: post #515
BingoAhoy wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stephen King was an English major. Word art, literature, helps people advance cognitively. English is an unowned cultivated intellectual property that greases communication which greases all other human endeavors. I think its underappreciated. Not all education needs to advance the frontier, much of it is about maintaining what we've already claimed and passing it on to new generations.

What kind of argument is that. For every 10,000 English majors there is maybe 1 Stephen king or anything close to ti

I think it's a quite good argument, and at very least one that doesn't rely on colleges literally producing a larger number Stephen Kings, as if something about the quantity produced could matter at all (really curious how you even arrived at that counter).

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#690

Post by songzme »

Universities are places where you go for intellectual pursuit of your interests, which is why majors like "study of russian history", "Anthropology And Archeology" exists. The major may be useless for employment, but the study helps preserve history and can be very interesting for the students who are passionate about it.

Somehow, society wrongly started associating universities for corporate job preparation.

I think people are starting to realize that if you want to get prepared for work, you should go to a trade training (like bootcamps). If you are priviledged enough to pursue your interests, then universities are a great place to be.

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