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I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

benadam.me

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Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's definitely a distinction with a difference for the OP. If I were a hiring manager and came across his resume and the name rang a bell, and I dug up this blog post, I would have no qualms about re-hiring him at Amazon despite the short tenure (assuming I could earn the author's trust that my hypothetical new team isn't as chaotic/on-fire as what he experienced before). His ability to communicate with tact a…

> Well, it's definitely a distinction with a difference for the OP In terms of OP's public persona, absolutely. And as I said, he writes the kind of post I'd probably write in that situation. I was referring to how the HN community often discusses Amazon, which generally happens anonymously. In this setting, someone ranting and raving about issues at Amazon and someone politely spelling out those issues at Amazon don…

I disagree with your writing off the whole thing with the single diagnosis of "organizational dysfunction." I'll explain why, but I'm not really trying to convince you, because I sense we are starting from perspectives that are too far apart to come to an agreement.

Some of the things the author observes, like having 56 different frameworks that roughly do the same thing, or so many business processes running in Excel, are really not about dysfunction, and are actually "by design", but in a nuanced way.

Amazon has a strong thesis about how organizations should function and how they should execute work / produce useful outputs, and part of that thesis is, to be incredibly and nigh-unbelievably averse to coordination costs. You can also think of this as, a consequence of the frugality mindset leading to an aversion against premature optimization. Yes, it is wasteful to some degree to have 56 different frameworks, but OTOH, the ROI of spending the effort to consolidate them, simply isn't there to justify fixing it... if it takes a team of 2-3 engineers 6 months to consolidate it, well guess what, in the same time, that same team of engineers could launch a $10M-$100M business opportunity (seriously). And trying to put a single central team in charge of maintaining a universal framework that can support all current and future needs forever, simply never works out (eliminating gatekeepers is a common refrain, in service of moving faster). Compared against the ROI of actually delivering value to customers, who cares about some extra frameworks?

Or put it another way: Amazon does not optimize for waste elimination, or "cleanliness" of organization, or unity of purpose; Amazon optimizes for deploying capital (in the form of launching software/services/products) as quickly as possible across as many opportunities as possible, and then rapidly evaluating and doubling down on winners. Is there waste? Absolutely (I mean, what VC has a 100% hit rate?)! Does it seem dysfunctional? Probably. Is this way of working effective (meaning, does it actually function at achieving the goals of the organization)? I think the growth of Amazon in the past 20+ years speaks for itself.

Does this way of working put people/employees first, or optimize for their happiness/well-being? No, not particularly, but neither do many industries (investment banks, public school teachers, or as you point out, the restaurant industry.). Should that be fixed or at least improved? Well, I'd like to think that's why I'm here, and also why post-retirement Bezos has pivoted to working on making Amazon "Earth's best employer" [1] (which is a significant shift from the original focus of being, "Earth's most customer centric company"). I realize those sound like platitudes, but it actually is a meaningful statement, showing a reallocation of energy/focus between customers vs employees.

[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeff-bezos-amazon-employee-care...

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EDIT: One further thing I wanted to clarify: if I am arguing in favor of anything, it is that Amazon as a whole organism, is far from dysfunctional at the macro level. But if you zoom in to individual pockets, individual orgs or teams, then yes absolutely there are many, many bad leaders, bad managers, poorly planned roadmaps, over-burdened/over-allocated engineers, terrible on-call cycles, etc., like what the author of this post observed. You are always taking a risk when joining Amazon, that you might end up in one of these bad situations. How high is that risk? Without trying to be overly precise, I would venture that it's closer to 80% good and 20% bad, then vice versa (but you don't have to believe me).

Another curious thing I've learned to appreciate in my team here, is that there is practically no other company in the world, where you would get the opportunity to learn how to operate a culture like this, at this scale, with this level of effectiveness (imperfect though it may be). How valuable or translatable is that experience though, I'm not sure... it's not like I can feasibly take my knowledge, and start up an Amazon-killer, or really get the opportunity to exercise my knowledge of how to design a company culture like-this-but-better, at this type of scale. But it sure is fascinating to watch it tick, from the inside.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people use algorithms daily, or went to school for them, and don’t need to study for leetcode. Likewise, some people do architecture or frontend apps all day and don’t need to study for those . No matter what a company asks, some people will find it unreasonable, at the end of the day the charitable interpretation is that the company is choosing interview challenges that they feel are a proxy for the skills need…

You're assuming that a company has to interview all candidates the same way regardless of what job they're actually interviewing for. A frequent complaint, voiced all over this thread, is that interviewing like that makes no sense. If the job uses 100-level algos all the time, then sure, let's talk algos (also, kinda weird, but I'm sure there's something out there like this). But if you're bringing me in as an SRE an…

I’m not assuming that.

I’m just suggesting some companies may want SREs who understand fundamental computer science and are able to apply it to novel problems, perhaps as a proxy for finding candidates who could create their own terraform or quickly learn whatever tool may supplant terraform in the future.

As an analogy, it’s valuable to hire an electrician who knows the whole electric code really well, even though your project may seemingly only require a subset of that knowledge. For example it’s not obvious adding an outlet could require rewiring the whole circuit and upgrading the panel to meet code.

Symmetrically, as you point out, one may find value in hiring a less expensive handyman to do their basic wiring, if you’re confident you just need a dimmer switch installed.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK I'm curious, this is computer graphics crap like z-buffers (I would probably say form a binary space partition tree, color all the polygons one color and a default background as black, rasterize the view, and then trace the outline)? Or is this some trick?

I didn't figure it out in time and he didn't elaborate, just sat there and watched me flounder, so I don't know for sure. This was way back in 2012 too, so I don't remember the details of what he asked super well. I was under the impression he was wanting me to figure out how to do it using only the bounds of the rectangles mathematically, and not by changing how it rendered, from what I can remember.

A 3d map of a city is a bunch of polygons. A skyline is a perspective on that 3d model, so you need occlusion/etc. The single line is then a postprocess on that view of the skyline.

Maybe there's some 2.5D cheats like DOOM did since the 3d model is all on one plane.

Agreed, a ridiculous question.

These questions where you either know the algorithms of giants, or are expected to reverse-engineer algorithms that people did research on for months or years... The height of arrogance.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#684

Hey congrats on making it 10 months! "Urgent to not block progress, but also ironic that they are asking a person who has no clue what they are doing to deliver critical work" Friend of mine started a role there (this was 4-5 years ago) and was fired (sorry... more or less asked to leave, being told he could keep his signing bonus if he just left) within about six weeks because he wasn't immediately delivering on som…

> I bag on Amazon a lot on here (which if I were to review with my therapist is likely because I had an absolutely HORRENDOUS experience in an interview loop with them my first step out of college that still makes me nervous in interviews, even 15 years later). Hey, I had a similar experience with Google! It was my first technical interview for my first job out of college. The interviewer laughed at my code, and then…

No post body was provided.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#685
post #590
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consultant side can do all three, but it’s a tough balancing act. You need the right niche, the right connections, great technical skills, and great social skills.

Or work for an agency. :)

*As a contractor

I don't think most civil servants qualify for the high pay portion (at least by comparison to SV pay scales), as their pay is capped. And work as a contractor brings about a host of other issues

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#686
post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard it described as: “You can work on interesting problems, have a great work-life balance, or get paid really well, but you can only select two.”

I don't care about interesting problems. I want to get paid really well and have a great work-life balance. But I don't think those jobs exist unless you're already an expert in something and can get by on the expertise that you already have. Please prove me wrong!

My take is that any desirable combination probably takes some up-front work, sacrifice, and luck.

For your example combination, I've known entrepreneurs who've met that mark, but it took some initial risk taking and sacrifice. The work isn't sexy by most SV measures but they make extremely good money and one in particular takes months off every year to travel in Europe while in his 30s. I wouldn't call them an 'expert', they just found a niche that other people didn't find interesting enough to pursue.

Likewise, for other combinations (say 'interesting work + high pay') you may have to put in early work for a PhD where you aren't getting paid well initially. For other combinations ('work-life-balance + interesting work') I've known people who essentially worked for free in order to network and prove themselves until they were offered one of those positions.

I guess the point I'm making is that those desirable combinations don't naturally just fall into the laps of most of us but are the product of deliberate and conscience up-front work that can't necessarily be templated out.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#687
post #591
post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard it described as: “You can work on interesting problems, have a great work-life balance, or get paid really well, but you can only select two.”

I would like "interesting problems" + "great work-life balance". Any recommendations on places these days? Don't seem to exist anymore, sadly.

CERN ;)

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#688
post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like "interesting problems" + "great work-life balance". Any recommendations on places these days? Don't seem to exist anymore, sadly.

Government. Academia. Speaking from experience. :). You won't get rich, but you won't starve either. And your pension might not be a complete disaster.

Just to pile on late, I would add to this. To meet the "interesting" part, you may be able to extend it to a National Laboratory, which is a bit quasi-government.

The academia route certainly exists, but the glut of of PhDs compared to available positions combined with the amount of complaining I've heard from non-tenured professors would make me a bit hesitant to advocate this route as a general recommendation. But there are other staff positions that might better fit that bill

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#689
post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll accept the logistics management part of Prime and AWS as obviously major achievements, but Alexa, Prime Video and Go? Alexa is a spy machine that makes already easy tasks marginally easier, and every so often tells a child exactly how to electrocute themselves. Prime Video is a 2nd or even 3rd rate video service in my experience. And having moved to Seattle recently, I tried out Amazon Go a couple times and it j…

You are approaching all of these from the perspective of an engineer and not recognizing that ordinary people don't see products and systems the way you do (a mistake I also often make). > Alexa is a spy machine that makes already easy tasks marginally easier For the average person who isn't super-bothered about privacy, the voice-activated functionality is genuinely novel and delightful. > Prime Video is a 2nd or ev…

The whole "average person doesn't care about privacy" while generally true, is in my opinion, a cop out that allows us software developers to hand wave away the ways we monetize people. Also, I can see how my friends who use alexa (and google for that matter) have adapted their vocal cadences and vocab to interact with the device. And at the end of the day it is a way for people to play music, get news/weather reports, and order more goods. All things that are already very easy on smartphones/web browsers.

As for Go, I have never seen a corner shop, either in the US or in Europe, with such a tiny density of goods. It is designed to look like a Safeway or a Kroger but then is "intentionally" a small store. It's fine if this is still in the trial stage but that is what it felt like, instead of feeling like an actual shopping experience I would use day to day. Also, there was no one else in the store at all, during each of the 3 times I went, so I am still going to wonder what the success rate will be when tracking lots of people constantly picking up and putting down items.

And sorry for the confusion, I'm not saying they aren't successes. I'm just saying that they are not world wide game changers like Prime and AWS as the original poster said.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think virtual interviews are in general a horrible idea. I haven’t interviewed since virtual on sites were introduced.

This wasn't even a virtual interview at the time. They flew me to Seattle for this.

Bizarre -- I've never had a recorded interview and that would throw me off completely as a candidate.
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