I disagreed at first, but it makes sense. This will probably not really affect high achievers while making math a more inclusive subject to minorities whose sub-cultures don't value math much. If math appreciation contributes to a love of learning then that's good enough for me.
California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
681–690 of 748 posts
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#682they should teach them Grothendieck's Dessins d'Enfants!
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#683Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's hard to introduce Algebra much earlier than 8th grade - the students just don't have the mathematical maturity for it. What you can do though is challenge and expose them to slightly more complex applications of ordinary math (often stated via increasingly elaborate "word problems") that make the introduction of algebra a lot more natural when the students are finally up for it. You tend to see this approach in…
> the students just don't have the mathematical maturity for it. Doesn't this get at the root of the problem though? Some students have the mathematical maturity for it. Others don't. The arguments seem to be between "we should present these concepts early for the benefit of the students who are ready for it" vs "we should delay these concepts until all students are ready." But different students have different level…
> Some students have the mathematical maturity for it.
I think part of the problem here is definitional.
* My oldest son's a few years ahead in mathematical understanding. He understood algebraic concepts very early, as presented in Singapore math and then through enrichment and bantering about various problems with his mathematically-inclined parents. Kids can absolutely get algebra and learn the rules early.
* But even if your 4th grader understands all the rules of symbolic manipulation, and the general concepts behind them... that's only part of what is taught in an algebra class aimed to 13 year olds. There's an emphasis on systematic process, checking for mistakes, carefully matching terms that is likely to be unnecessarily frustrating to younger kids.
* Many programs for gifted youth go in exactly the wrong direction: emphasizing more rigor for the gifted youth, harder problem sets, etc. He took Algebra I with CTY and the number of opportunities for sign mistakes or mismatching coefficients per problem were dizzying.
I believe we should be:
* Throwing ideas at primary kids, with small numbers of degrees of freedom to make the problems manageable for a population that developmentally has less discipline. The complexity of the ideas involved can scale based on what the kid knows so far.
* Throwing deep process and carefulness at older kids. The complexity of the ideas involved can scale based on what the kid knows so far, but the process and accuracy expectations can scale mostly with age.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#684Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, but I'm talking about what works well for the average student, not just math whizs who post on HN.
You shouldn't optimize for the average student; you should stratify instruction so students of different levels are pushed to their limits and beyond. Sure, some students will not be able to handle algebra as early as others. That doesn't mean you hold back the students who can. That's disastrous public policy, at the very least.
I agree, but stratifying too early can be harmful.
I believe what's likely to be best for everyone is:
* Keep everyone on the same track through early elementary, but we need to work hard on making the classrooms encourage everyone to be curious and stretch themselves. Games and puzzles are the answer here.
* In upper elementary, start to offer differentiated instruction within a classroom.
* In middle school and beyond, have true stratified tracks (which this article recommends not doing).
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#685Earlier quoted context omitted.
Honestly this sounds like absolutely wonderful qualities I wished more people in the world had. Nothing screwed us more than willingness of people to take part in conflicts. Imagine how much harm and waste could be avoided if when generals daid, let's go liberate Afghanistan soldiers responded, nah, I'm good rather then collectively following ideas of imaginary Uncle Sam.
Perhaps you might ask the women of Afghanistan if they're happy about Americans recently deciding to avoid conflict there. Except they probably couldn't answer honestly, for fear of being killed by their new rulers.
Except that those are the old rules that USA failed to meaningfully change in their campaign of using up and ditching some equipment, so they can justify taking more of the taxpayers money to buy new equipment and skim a part of that money for themselves.
Did America do anything positive there? Or did they just pause natural development of that country by 20 years, to organize their little vacation from Taliban?
Rarely anything postive is achieved by going somewhere and breaking some shit and killing some folks for some time. Last few decades of USA foreign policy show it more clearly than any reasonable person should require.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#686Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Please show me the part of my comment where I alleged a conspiracy? Or said anything about the woke?
I don't know about 'woke' but when people make generic comments like "you're not supposed to understand" and "the real goal is", followed by something dark and sinister, you're certainly not contributing substantively to the thread. That is flamebait and therefore off topic here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: since your account has unfortunately been using HN primarily for ideological battle, and you've ignored our many requests to stop, I've banned it. That's not allowed here, regardless of what you're battling for, because it destroys what this site is supposed to be for.* If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. But please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
* HN is supposed to be for curious conversation, not smiting enemies.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#687Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're not supposed to understand "the opposing argument", because it's fake. The real goal of this change is to increase the gap between kids whose family situation will give them an opportunity to learn actual math before college, and those whose family situation will keep them permanently locked out of college. This will ensure that the demographics of the next generation are even more skewed toward social instabi…
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Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, regardless of how wrong or provocative another comment is or you feel it is. And please don't use HN for ideological battle in your own right. That's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#688Earlier quoted context omitted.
Spend some extra time figuring out why they're struggling. But I suspect what you have in mind is something else, something more along the lines of leaving them behind.
This thread is full of some of the least empathetic people on the planet. Some people just struggle with stuff that others don’t.
There's still a lot of unfounded blank-slatism and autism (in the sense of inability to empathize) in our educated society, and proudly on display here on HN.
It's effectively impossible to get someone with an IQ of 130 to have empathy for someone with an IQ of 95. They just need to work harder, they just need to have better teachers, they just need to stop watching so much television, they just need to get better nutrition, ad nauseum.
Imagine the ego crush that would occur if a 130 IQ true-believer in human equality is faced with the prospect that their intellectual success is due to winning a genetic lottery, not due to their hard work and proper life choices.
Of course they're going to deny the reality of hardwired cognitive horsepower.
To do otherwise is to deny how much better they are than you.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#689Earlier quoted context omitted.
Part of this is simply a function of specialization. Teaching high school let alone first grade to an extremely high academic standard doesn’t actually achieve anything significant for society. It’s arguably much better to give kids reasonable minimum standards and plenty of free time and the capacity to explore their interests. This avoids burnout and generally keeps people interested in their passions rather than s…
What if the students are interested in learning a subject to a high academic standard and will be bored otherwise? I was getting lower grades at my easy "teach to the bottom 10%" public school than the very difficult private school I moved to. By just dismissing academic rigor, you are alienating the high-performers who WANT to care. That's a bad group of people for a society to ignore.
“alienating the high-performers”
And that’s a bad thing because? You where receiving exactly the kind of minimum education that was seemingly enough even if your grades where poor.
Remember life doesn’t hold your hand, self motivation is just as important for long term success as innate intelligence. Hand holding the academically gifted to cram as much as possible into young minds has been traded before it doesn’t actually seem to accomplish anything of note beyond excelling in artificial milestones like the Putnam.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#690Earlier quoted context omitted.
And Mozart was writing concertos at 5. Prodigies existing shouldn't define how we educate people.
Should Mozart have been kept away from musical instruments because his peers weren't at his level? In other words, should people existing define how we educate prodigies? Who gets to determine who is a prodigy and who isn't, and at what age?
No one is disallowing kids from having access to advanced math.