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“Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

niemanlab.org

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Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#681

Post by dguest »

_2d30 wrote: post #654
detuur wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It provides regulatory pressure to make unsubscribing as easy as possible. Those costs are entirely absent if customers can click a button. Otherwise, if the regulation merely prescribes that there has to be a button, there is little consequence if the button doesn't work, or you have to jump through 50 hoops to find it like in cookie banners. The Swedish model ensures that if your button is unsatisfactory, you'll be…

> Otherwise, if the regulation merely prescribes that there has to be a button, there is little consequence if the button doesn't work, This is a ridiculous strawman. The Swedish model also makes it such that sufficiently motivated ass holes can make a company's life very difficult. Much better to have sensible legislation like the FTC's where your mode of unsubbing is equivalent to your mode of subbing. Really, shoc…

I don't think most companies are maliciously breaking unsubscribe buttons, but there are a lot of websites that don't work on some browsers, are badly maintained to the point of being unusable, are confusing, or simply don't work because the people that maintain them aren't professional web designers.

When your website is broken and you continue to charge me money, I don't think the onus on me to report the broken website, help your (maybe non-existent) IT division to find the bug, wait around for them to come up with a fix, and then help them beta test it. I should be able to file a ticket and say "I don't want your services please stop taking my money".

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#682

Post by woobar »

devilbunny wrote: post #268
codingclaws wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Portugal is logical on some stuff. Another example is prostitution is legal but you can only advertise yourself. I wonder what other countries have prostitution set up like this. Or the speed traps that just trigger a red light. Decriminalization of all drugs obviously too.

> speed traps that just trigger a red light Much better than what I've seen in my (US) city: speed limit 30 mph, but lights timed for 40-45 mph to get a continuous green light down the one-way street. Either you speed, opening you to tickets, or you stop needlessly on lights that are set for a faster speed than you are traveling.

Are lights timed to 40-45 mph in both directions?

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#683

Post by throwaway894345 »

napo wrote: post #675
throwaway894345 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I remember the ordeal that was trying to cancel a cell phone plan when I was a broke student studying abroad. Had to plead with them in arcane, formal French (a real pain considering I wasn't even fluent in everyday, conversational French--ended up needing help from a native French friend) on stationary and they still rejected my cancellation and continued to charge my French bank account. I tried closing my Fre…

Funny, I had the opposite experience. I'm French and I spent 2 years in the US. I had a T-mobile subscription, and it was too painful to cancel my subscription. With my accent I could barely pass the robot that was trying to understand why I was calling. Then when I had someone on the phone, the call just dropped, in the middle of conversations. I did that a few times and then gave up. I assume I'll also receive a no…

T-Mobile has stores all over and they can help you cancel in person (I did this in the US, and it's very common to change carriers). I suspect you can also cancel online. You can also pay with credit card, and in extreme cases you can have your credit card company decline/block charges (I had to do this when Hertz tried to defraud me out of hundreds of dollars). I also suspect banks will happily decline/block charges as well, but I'm less sure since I route most of my transactions through my credit card--at the very least it's quite a lot easier to close a bank account in the US.

On the other hand, when I was in France just to open a cell phone account, I had to bring visa paperwork, proof of residence, and a bank account (no cell phone option) and it took 24 hours to open the account (compared with ~15 minutes + a credit card in the US).

I'm sure there are lots of things that are more difficult in the US, but France excels at bureaucracy in my experience. I should also note that I love France in general and its investment in nuclear power in particular. (:

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#684

Post by topkai22 »

elwell wrote: post #549
eckesicle wrote: post #502

Meanwhile in Scandinavia: You are legally entitled to unsubscribe from any contract in any way that is most comfortable to you. [0] For example, you can: * send them a letter * send them an email * call them and tell anyone who picks up the phone * write it on a napkin and hand it to an employee All are equally legit and legally binding. Companies obviously do not want to deal with the manual overhead, so services ty…

How does this law translate to decentralized contracts/subscriptions? It may not be possible to support these analog mediums on an Ethereum smart contract for example.

I'm a bit ignorant of smart contracts and I'm not a lawyer, but presumably the service provider would have to take whatever action would invalidate the subscription.

It gets weird with escrow though, because it's possible the law could treat money in escrow (like in a contract account) as already prepaid- if you wrote a contract to be paid every month for 12 months provided that a given key to a service stated valid and funded the escrow for the 12 months, it's possible the court would rule that you bought 12 months of a product, not a subscription.

I'm not aware if this has been litigated.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#685

Post by MisterTea »

napo wrote: post #675
throwaway894345 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I remember the ordeal that was trying to cancel a cell phone plan when I was a broke student studying abroad. Had to plead with them in arcane, formal French (a real pain considering I wasn't even fluent in everyday, conversational French--ended up needing help from a native French friend) on stationary and they still rejected my cancellation and continued to charge my French bank account. I tried closing my Fre…

Funny, I had the opposite experience. I'm French and I spent 2 years in the US. I had a T-mobile subscription, and it was too painful to cancel my subscription. With my accent I could barely pass the robot that was trying to understand why I was calling. Then when I had someone on the phone, the call just dropped, in the middle of conversations. I did that a few times and then gave up. I assume I'll also receive a no…

Thankfully living in a big city in the USA there are T mobile stores you can go to and speak to a human being face to face.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#687

Post by devilbunny »

woobar wrote: post #682
devilbunny wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> speed traps that just trigger a red light Much better than what I've seen in my (US) city: speed limit 30 mph, but lights timed for 40-45 mph to get a continuous green light down the one-way street. Either you speed, opening you to tickets, or you stop needlessly on lights that are set for a faster speed than you are traveling.

Are lights timed to 40-45 mph in both directions?

Somewhat inconsistently. This was most obvious on a pair of one-way streets, but one of them has been returned to two-way traffic. AFAICT, the waves in opposite direction started at the same time and the two streams passed each other around the halfway point. Other one-way streets in the area aren't on precisely the same schedule. The stretch was only about six or seven blocks long. And the wave didn't start at the boundary street of the area on one end, but one block into the area.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#688

Post by devilbunny »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #435
dhimes wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not GP, but I've seen it in the Boston area.

Not that the .gov won't happily take in money as a result of the dark pattern they've created but the primary cause of the patterns creation is likely the same old poor coordination, inertia and ineptitude that tends to plague government in wealthy areas with lots of stakeholders. The road is signed probably for 30 because that's what is was historically or that's what they got after evaluating what the confusing web…

Most assuredly not a wealthy area. But the local government is pretty awful.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#689

Post by jagrsw »

rootusrootus wrote: post #638
sam0x17 wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like that though are really just a viable solution in disguise -- make the U.S. more like said country

That's impossible. Said country differs dramatically from the US on almost every meaningful measurement, from population size, density, style of government, cultural history, existing systems, etc. And it begs the question that said country's system is actually better. In some metrics maybe it is, in others perhaps less so. And there's no reason to believe that US citizens' priorities on that will be the same.

> Said country differs dramatically from the US on almost every meaningful measurement.

Some differencies are relevant, some not. Population density has nothing to do with the regulation re ease or assymetries related to canceling contracts.

I suspect the vast majority of US population would simply want to import the nordic ways of dealing with the discussed topics if there was a bigger discussion on it, as it'll save a lot of frustration/money, while it doesn't seem to unfairly disbenefit companies (for whatever definition of disbenefit). Nordic ISPs are probably doing fairly well (Telia et al).

So, it's a question: why it's so hard or takes so long time to implement things in US, which have no obvious drawbacks and improve quality of people lifes? In the end it's also a representative democracy.

This is HN, saying "we're having this process in country X, and it's clearly worse than in country Y, and the reason is 'culture and history'" might be a technical explanation here, but when it's used as a statement of support, it "does not follow".

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