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FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

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Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#681

Post by La1n »

orblivion wrote: post #658
DangerousPie wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason there is fear is because people keep posting stories like these without putting them into context. It has been clear for a while now that the Pfizer vaccine works and is safe. Just because Pfizer has chosen to keep collecting data doesn't make that there is any doubt about that. This is also why control groups have been given the option to get vaccinated too. It would be highly questionable to prevent…

It seems reasonable to argue that the control group should have access to the vaccine, but it still makes them not really a control group anymore right?

Yes, that's why they no longer in the control group. Informed consent can be withdrawn at any time during a trial, and people are not obligated to not take a vaccine when in the control group. The only thing you can do is remove someone from the study, or possibly move them to the other study arm.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#682

Post by enragedcacti »

niij wrote: post #632
learc83 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any specific examples of this?: "weird, Orwellian ways that the government talks about it" Public schools, colleges, and the military have been requiring vaccines for decades. >It ends up feeling less like the decisions are guided by science and more like they’re guided by petty tyrants wanting to control what others do. This sounds like a result of reading about what health care and government officials…

> Do you have any specific examples of this?: "weird, Orwellian ways that the government talks about it" "The voluntary phase is over" - Bill de Blasio https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2021/08/03/new-york-c...

For more context of that quote:

> The Mayor will also be initiating a “Key to NYC Pass,” which is like the Covid-19 passport talked about a few months ago. It's a carrot-and-stick approach, as people will be required to show that they are vaccinated if they want to go to restaurants, gyms and other events. No vaccinations, no entrance. “If you want to participate in society fully, you’ve got to get vaccinated,” de Blasio proclaimed. “If we’re going to stop the Delta variant, the time is now,” said the mayor. “This is going to make clear, you want to enjoy everything great in this summer of New York City? Go get vaccinated.”

> In an interview with MSNBC, de Blasio dialed up his frustration over the unvaccinated. “We’ve got to shake people at this point and say, ‘Come on now.’ We tried voluntary. We could not have been more kind and compassionate. Free testing, everywhere you turn, incentives, friendly, warm embrace. The voluntary phase is over,” de Blasio said last week. “It’s time for mandates, because it’s the only way to protect our people.”

De Blasio is talking about restricting access to entirely optional events and locations based on vaccine status, not mandating anyone get it or else.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#683

Post by all2 »

abnry wrote: post #560
ipaddr wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are mostly worried about long term side effects. Including those who have the vaccine. Understanding that base fear will help bridge the divide between groups.

I think the main non-conspiracy reasons fall into these categories: - Fear, hesitancy about potential long term risks. - Resistance to government mandating a vaccine (freedom, low trust in government, other options not being considered) - Resistance to the cultural paradigm of "un-vaccinated = bad/deplorable person" - Belief that the risk of COVID is already low (at least for them)

I'll add to this the absolutely weird monologue that is typically used when trying to convince people to get the vaccine: they pay money, they give away free things, they recite rappers (?!). But its good for you. Followed by demonizing anyone who chooses not to get it.

It is literally a carrot/stick routine. Do what I want? Get a carrot. Don't do what I want? I'll beat you with the stick of public shaming.

This site is the only public forum I've seen reasoned debate on. Everywhere else and debate/dissent are actively shut down. Any information that conflicts with the seeming narrative is made to disappear.

For example, major hospital/health orgs that have stated in the past that masks don't slow viral spread have removed that data in the complete absence of randomized, controlled trials showing that masks actually work. In fact, meta studies have routinely shown that masks don't work to prevent viral spread [0].

[0]https://www.city-journal.org/do-masks-work-a-review-of-the-e...

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#684

Post by [deleted] »

acdha wrote: post #6

I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. I think a huge factor will be how many employers, colleges, etc. are now willing and legally able to require vaccination. It’s one thing to say you trust something you read on Facebook more than your doctor and quite another to walk away from a job because of it.

[deleted]

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#685

Post by XorNot »

criticaltinker wrote: post #667
XorNot wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For pregnant women the conclusion has been in for a while that COVID-19 leads to a higher incidence of hospitalizations and complications and it has been advice from OBGYN's to get vaccinated with Pfizer ASAP: source - my wife is currently pregnant and we were told this by our OBGYN, who also suggested Astrazeneca would be unlikely to be harmful but couldn't professionally recommend it as their were no formal studies…

> The conclusion has been in for a while that COVID-19 leads to a higher incidence of hospitalizations and complications Yes just about any symptomatic illness is going to lead to hospitalization and complications during pregnancy. I understand how the language on the CDC page you cited may lead you to believe that vaccines are conclusively recommended, but take a look at this page from the CDC [1] (updated August 11…

If your wife has had COVID before she got pregnant, or during and recovered just fine, then that's a very different proposition to my wife who has not had COVID. You're burying the lead hard and frankly if you want to argue against the CDC and ATAGI[1] (the Australia advisory board) then the onus is on you to provide the extraordinary evidence that they shouldn't be believed.

Your proposition is "a virus many times deadlier then the flu in a target group who have more serious outcomes from anything, what could go wrong?"

And your evidence is: "well for someone who currently has effective natural immunity.."

[1] https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2021...

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#686

Post by xiphias2 »

appleflaxen wrote: post #166

Any physician may prescribe any FDA-approved medication outside the scope of the label if it's indicated in their medical judgment. That means that it may be prescribed to individuals <18 in some circumstances, and that it's legal to do so (explicit emergency authorization notwithstanding).

Can I now travel to the US and pay for one if I want as a non-US resident? So far that was impossible.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#687

Post by mdp2021 »

bart_spoon wrote: post #62
giantg2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or continue an existing reason: "Information is not yet available about potential long-term health outcomes."

Which still wouldn't be a logical argument, given that the same applies regarding long-term health outcomes regarding getting sick with Covid. But I suspect you are right.

It is not illogical: those people have two fears instead of one.

Some chance of high probability of damages, vs full chance of low probability of damages.

This is why numbers are important... Fuzzy equation members like 'some', 'high' and 'low' are inadequate for this decision making.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#688

Post by ktkoffroth »

NineStarPoint wrote: post #244
peakaboo wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if true, so what? It's their bodies. They should be allowed to choose, just like you are.

Because in cases like this, the choice they’re making with their body can be directly responsible for the hospitalization and death of other people in their vicinity. Vaccines aren’t fool proof, every person who doesn’t take the vaccine is an increased chance for those who did take the vaccine to get exposed to a breakthrough case. I know I wouldn’t want to work in person at any place that didn’t have a vaccine manda…

Worrying about getting other people sick when you do not reasonable suspicion that you are sick is a moral trap. If something is "everyone's" responsibility, then it really is _no one's_ responsibility, because there is no way to determine who spread the disease to whom. In this case, it's best to simply take the steps you feel necessary to protect yourself and your loved ones.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#689

Post by pkaye »

albatross13 wrote: post #430
acdha wrote: post #6

I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. I think a huge factor will be how many employers, colleges, etc. are now willing and legally able to require vaccination. It’s one thing to say you trust something you read on Facebook more than your doctor and quite another to walk away from a job because of it.

I'm already triple vaxxed (booster), but there are plenty of aspects to this that help drive people's fear: - Phase 3 trials for Pfizer not complete until May 2023: ( https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728 ) - Control group(s) were given vaccines after 14 days: ( https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/9691430... ) - Pfizer generates 1.9bn in revenue off of 100m doses, just in the USA alone, cre…

I wonder if the unvaccinated who have the above concerns will still prefer to use Remdesiver which has only gone through and EUA at this point.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#690

Post by ethbr0 »

jboggan wrote: post #526
DangerousPie wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason there is fear is because people keep posting stories like these without putting them into context. It has been clear for a while now that the Pfizer vaccine works and is safe. Just because Pfizer has chosen to keep collecting data doesn't make that there is any doubt about that. This is also why control groups have been given the option to get vaccinated too. It would be highly questionable to prevent…

"It has been clear for a while now that the Pfizer vaccine works and is safe." Yes, except there is an established process for quantifying "clear for a while now" and it involves sufficient time and control groups. That process isn't being followed and it is concerning for a number of reasons, including the effect of political pressure on expedited drug approvals in the future now that this precedent is being set. Th…

> political pressure on expedited drug approvals

I feel like people keep forgetting the definition of "public health crisis."

Time is lives. And economic dollars.

The standard process is designed around limiting harm. Not rapid delivery. Not maximizing good.

In times of business as usual, that's fine. In times of public health crises, it's not.

If we'd rapid approved HIV / AIDS treatments in the 1980s, the world as a whole would have been better.

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