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TikTok overtakes Facebook as most downloaded app

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Re: TikTok overtakes Facebook as most downloaded app

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deplatforming isn't really my wheelhouse so I'll stay out of that one, there are plenty of intelligent people on both sides of the coin who do understand the issue to the point where there isn't much value in my chipping in. As for data privacy, you make a fair point. As I said in an earlier comment, despite my misgivings about their "take everything that isnt bolted down" approach, I continued to use Facebook even a…

I agree that we agree :) And I am a very active Facebook user, too (the use case of keeping in touch with many friends scattered across the nation/world is covered pretty darn well there). The value I derive from these platforms is orthogonal; there's a place for both. I am not a fan of Google because they keep changing things and killing off the projects that I like. Believe it or not, I was completely sold on the C…

I think the reason Google has such a stranglehold over me is more the fact that they have so many small things that, whilst individually are easily replacable, would be a big job to do at once. The only things I can't see I could easily replace is the account switching with chrome (although I haven't really looked into it, there probably is something) and Keep (the fact that theres nothing out there quite like it is honestly shocking, to the point that I've considered just doing it myself). Everything else is, as you say, not particularly unique, theres just so much of it.

To be honest when I wrote the argument that people should listen to the other sideI didn't even have Trump in mind, but it is a great point and kind of shows it is a universal issue (both politically and otherwise), though Im optimistic that things are slowly starting to change, if for no other reason than for seeing these kinds of comments :)

And you're absolutely right, it applies to TikTok too, so I apologise for being so quick to jump the gun and forget to practice what I preach, and thank you for the great discussion. It is always nice to have something which starts as an argument end so nicely, whether we agree with everything or not. Have a lovely day :)

Re: TikTok overtakes Facebook as most downloaded app

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s say that this purported effect of hiding the ”divergent” to ostensibly avoid bullying does not exist at any substantial rate, at least not for you. I’m still curious what you think about the claims in the articles further up the thread, regarding steps they took to try to make that happen (even if maybe they were unsuccessful). Personally, it doesn’t leave me with a great taste in my mouth.

Let's be clear: it sucks, and at least it used to happen. But it sucks precisely because there's no other platform that gives the neurodivergent crowd a voice the way TikTok does. This is why I'm talking about it! If the engineers in the West don't understand the value of TikTok, we'll never get a homegrown alternative. Think about TikTok as an apartment complex with an awful landlord that sometimes kicks disabled pe…

What are those wheelchair ramps?

Re: TikTok overtakes Facebook as most downloaded app

#683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fatalism is how bad things survive. Don't accept bad behavior, and sure as hell don't criticize those that are standing up to it.

No one has described how those things are bad.

I do not want apps to access info they don’t need. That’s how it is bad.

Re: TikTok overtakes Facebook as most downloaded app

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it "gets rid of people" by isolating them into bubbles and makes sure people who don't want to see it, well, won't see it. Is it "representation" if it's only seen by people who want to see it? I think it's a big question, and one that applies to most social media, even if TikTok is one of the most extreme examples. Is it ethically/morally/socially good to de facto isolate niche groups of like-minded people int…

>Is it "representation" if it's only seen by people who want to see it? Why is that objectionable? It's not like people don't know about queer or trans people and tiktok is shielding them from knowing, people know and just aren't interested. Forcing people to watch things they aren't interested in only makes them resentful and fed up with them, instead of simply uninterested. Interest can't be demanded.

Do you support minority quotas or any other measures intended for diversity?

Re: TikTok overtakes Facebook as most downloaded app

#685
post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's like saying that providing people with groceries is the secondary purpose of grocery stores, the first being collecting money in exchange for them. No, not really. Like Facebook or Google, TikTok's revenue comes from selling ads. The advertisement business quite literally is based on how much personal info they can gather on yourself, and how they can leverage it to allow themselves and third parties to expl…

In case I didn't make it clear, providing data about yourself and making yourself more "vulnerable" to advertisers is the currency you pay with for using the platform. As far as I care, letting random people know random facts about me so that they're more likely to peddle me stuff that I actually like is not "exploitation", but that's merely an opinion.

The problem with data collection is not what they companies doing it use it for at the moment. The problem is making so many details of your personal life discoverable by someone simply buying some data and cross referencing databases.

When you lose privacy willingly saying "but I have nothing to hide" you also lose the ability to hide from bad actors.

Re: TikTok overtakes Facebook as most downloaded app

#686
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. The first purpose is pure invasive data collection of everything on the platform; otherwise how else is that so-called 'legendary recommendation algorithm' supposed to work? That and your data is the key asset that is being sold over and used by other companies as well, which is a violation of user privacy. The news here is reassuring to investors and the users like the parent comment are once again the pr…

One thing of note is that them collecting everything on the platform doesn't really hit me in the same way as facebook doing. Somehow tho tiktok gets more hate. Facebook being a more traditional social media has people dropping info and stuff about their plain personal life whilst tiktok is more of a content platform like youtube. Also unlike facebook and google tiktok has a thougher time following people all around…

Might be just me but I'm way more scared of the CCP then of the FB board of directors. The latter hasn't really used online data for genocide purposes yet...

Re: TikTok overtakes Facebook as most downloaded app

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TikTok's algorithm has introduced me to my (now) favorite neurodivergent and LGBTQ+ content makers. But when did that start? Possibly earlier before the “people who attract trouble” filters were added in to the algorithms or tweaked. Now you've shown engagement with those families of content other parts of the recommendation system will be taking precedence over the negative filters. A newer user than yourself may…

A lot of your argument seems to be based on the assumption that I've been on the platform for a long time. I joined last month. Specifically, over a year after the article cited by the parent comment was written. That's my point here: I don't know if their algorithms were bad in the past, they are not bad now in the way the parent comment claimed then to be. As for the rest of your comment, you seem to miss that we'r…

> That's my point here: I don't know if their algorithms were bad in the past, they are not bad now in the way the parent comment claimed then to be.

It isn't that the algorithms have been changed for the better. It is that they don't affect your use case. People expressing the things you want to see expressed are they and can be found if searched for, the recommendation algorithms don't have a significant effect there.

> The incredible thing about TikTok is the the algorithm can connect you to the right people even if you're not consciously aware of belonging to the group.

While the algorithm is serving you more content from those groups now you have been identified it isn't the algorithm that got you there in the first place, and once it has put you in your clique it is perfectly happy to give you more content from within that clique and serve any content you share within that clique.

If that is good for you then that is fine, but you have been digitally segregated. The algorithm doesn't mark individual items of content as being targets for bullying and so hides them from the larger population, it marks the user who posted that content (and possibly those that interacted with it too). What about people within the clique that the algorithm's filters are is assigning them to who have other interests too, and they want to express those widely? To make up a realistic example: my friend who happens to be trans puts out a great little clip based on one of Fiore's dagger plays, as does someone else who isn't (or hasn't been identified as by the TikTok) in any minority group, me for example. My clip has a greater chance of being presented by the recommendation algorithms to the whole global HEMA community, hers will likely only ever be presented to other users within the assigned clique. Nothing stops either bit of content being published, found by direct link, found by people that know us so might check our stuff specifically, and so forth, but because of the “hide users who bullies might pile on, instead of actually dealing with the bullies” filter the spread of her content will probably be more curtailed than mine because she is trans despite the content not being related to that part of her identity in any way shape or form.

> What TikTok does is an unparalleled reach to speak to each other.

Which is fine if you don't want to use the platform for anything else. You might be happy[†] being segregated into a clique by these filters, or at least otherwise unaffected by the fact because you don't want to use TikTok for anything else, but other people are inconvenienced by it, potentially significantly so.

There may be workarounds of course. Perhaps having multiple accounts. But that is asking people to make an effort to not be inconvenienced which is itself inconvenient, and the multiple accounts thing might not even work reliably as accounts could end up linked to each other in the back-end by various means either deliberate or as an emergent behaviour of tracking and classification functions.

For the avoidance of doubt: I think it is a very good thing that you have been able to “find your people”, to find an environment in which you feel safe to be you, in which you feel both understood and supported. Just be careful that this safe environment doesn't slide into becoming more of a prison, keeping you in rather than keeping negatives out.

Re: TikTok overtakes Facebook as most downloaded app

#688
post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are so many interesting things about TikTok that one can discuss, and choosing to just be a Debbie Downer about it ("You like it, but it's bad for you!") feel like an extremely boring way to think about anything. Oddly enough, I find comments like "I don't care to talk about any negativity because this product/service is the best thing since slice bread" boring as well. What's your point? You seem to be getti…

I'm trying to make a simple statement: the claim that TikTok is the same as other platforms is idiotic (if it were so, it wouldn't reach the #1 spot in spite of not being around a few years ago). Logic dictates that TikTok must be doing something differently, and doing it right . I am trying to explain what that something is. I am upset because as long as people here don't get what makes TikTok unique and successful,…

> Exhibit 1: Instagram, which is now imitating TikTok, poorly, with it's video feed. Literally all content I see there is TikTok reposts.

Anecdata?

> YouTube's... whatever. Dead in the water.

Lol what? YT is still growing and has 2.3B users...

https://www.businessofapps.com/data/youtube-statistics/

> Did I make my point clear?

You did.

> Facebook and Google don't get it. HackerNews doesn't get it.

We do. You're just not understanding OUR point. People are not disagreeing that there is somehow a better/unique experience on TikTok - in fact the opposite, most people here believe that to be true. We're saying that there is a very CLEAR trend when it comes to social media apps. In fact you said it yourself "YouTube and Instagram are crap now". The parent's original premise was that we are in a honeymoon phase with TikTok and all of the ills associated with the other social media platforms will very likely plague TikTok eventually. Worse, TikTok is heavily influenced by a regime well known for abuse that pales in comparison to civil liberties to that of the US/Facebook. In essence, this is a recipe for disaster.

> I hope I made my comment negative enough for your preference, but I'll be glad to elaborate.

Your insistent deflection and "poor me" attitude doesn't help your argument...worse, it makes me think you're a shill.

Re: TikTok overtakes Facebook as most downloaded app

#690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be clear: it sucks, and at least it used to happen. But it sucks precisely because there's no other platform that gives the neurodivergent crowd a voice the way TikTok does. This is why I'm talking about it! If the engineers in the West don't understand the value of TikTok, we'll never get a homegrown alternative. Think about TikTok as an apartment complex with an awful landlord that sometimes kicks disabled pe…

What are those wheelchair ramps?

Short legth limits, audio captioning, using audio from another video so you don't have to talk, easy text placement (again, so you don't have to talk), all videos are vertical, ability to respond to a comment with a video (and encouraging it by imposing 150 char limit), responding to another video with video (including part of it for context), ability to download videos (so you can play or edit them however you want),

— and that's just off the top of my head on the content creation side. Off the top of my head.

Most importantly, it's that algorithm does a good job at bringing you the right audience, having one-click promotion tools, having detailed analytics, etc.

If you don't see this as accessibility features, well, that's my entire point.

The net result is that a TikTok post can start a conversation, with videos. And someone just talking - or just acting to audio - is first-class content. As is just showing a slice of your life and slapping some text on it.

Even if you make such content on other platforms, it'll have zero reach there. You have to do much more work to have people watch a video on IG or FB (people would just scroll past your video without playing it), or YouTube (whose UX strongly favors long videos, otherwise it's too many clicks).

The effort required to make a video for other platforms that people would see is a barrier that TikTok creators don't face.

This applies to everyone, but neurodivergent people benefit from it especially.

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