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Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

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Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#681
The other thing here, is "second system effect" I do believe the women founders are getting gazumped, but sometimes, the gazumping will be somebody like Amazon doing it badly at scale, for a price you can't match and with Amazon backed guarantees. Your elegant solution got second-systemed.

Or maybe, it's the double-whammy? They second-systemed you and ghosted you and clammed up all at the same time?

I have experienced sitting in an international research workshop hearing my work played back to be by a PhD student. They're going to be first-to-file because they got peer review and in a commercial research domain, I didn't bother validating my idea properly in the peer-set. It was a lesson in dotting the I and crossing the T if you want recognition for prior work.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#682
post #408

If you are a woman you can easily counter this behavior by labelling it and saying that you don't have a porcelain skin. Bonuspoints if you laugh about a guy giving you super bad feedback and how this did not bother you. Putting people at ease around you (especially customers) is a critical entrepreneurial skill. You can't blame people for being cautious when a lot of people are buying into victim-narratives and conv…

As a woman, I adopted this solution about a year ago. I will literally tell new teammates, "Look, I'm new to this career, I have a TON to learn, and I would love to be critiqued and given advice on how I can improve. I operate under a good-faith policy, so I will always assume you're being helpful and not condescending, unless you're overwhelmingly insulting (ie: telling me women aren't made for leadership roles.)"

I do not exaggerate when I say that the amount of meaningful advice I've been given since I adopted this technique has increased 5x.

Another perk--due to my vocal policy on this, I had an autistic colleague tell me that I'm the only woman he feels comfortable working with. He struggles to read social situations, and he frets that women will interpret his bluntness as him being dismissive or "mansplaining." It made me very sad to think he's missing out on good relationships with so many talented women in our office, just because of this environment of fear. But he's a wonderful friend and colleague, and I am so happy to have his advice and support.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#683
post #505

There's a dark irony to the idea that the defenses against sexism (standing up and calling people out) are also causing an unintended secondary sexism by discouraging equal treatment out of fear of accusations. I've held the belief that if a someone can't recognize and clearly identify the differences between criticism based on merits and criticism based on bias, then there is no point attempting to do "what they wan…

I think it is just a general dynamic of social movements.

As they accomplish their goals the moderate extreme membership drops out and the median voice moves ever towards the radical. "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain" sort of thing. I'm not trying to say that about any specific movement, but it does seem like the "hero" aspect of many movements is on the decline.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't sexism/racism/etc per-se, and more the current culture of airing dirty laundry in public, amplified by hungry mobs and social media companies who profit off the resulting dumpster fire ("engagement" as they call it). Furthermore, beyond the media (whether social media or traditional media - print, TV, etc) industry profiting off it, some people's careers are entirely based on this problem persisting…

> The problem isn't sexism/racism/etc per-se, and more the current culture of airing dirty laundry in public, amplified by hungry mobs and social media companies who profit off the resulting dumpster fire ("engagement" as they call it). I see the latter as a mere symptom of the former—that is, the angry mob is a side effect of the rampant discrimination. It’s certainly not limited to tech, although I’m sure each indu…

My problem with this whole situation is that I'm not sure the mob is angry because of the discrimination problem as opposed to pretending to be angry and virtue-signaling to take advantage of the situation. I'd bet that for every person legitimately angry about the situation and has valuable input, there will be dozens who simply exploit the situation for their own benefit. This isn't limited to people even - companies do this too.

The mob mentality itself supports this theory; a genuine effort to solve discrimination would involve respectful communication in an attempt to understand the problem, iron out any misunderstandings and change minds; but this is not what we see - instead we have witch-hunts, partly because the mere appearance of being human towards the "enemy" would cause the rest of the mob to turn on you, but maybe also because there isn't much willingness to actually solve the problem, or maybe even because there wasn't actually a problem if you drill down into the details?

This reminds me of Daryl Davis, a black man who attended KKK rallies in an effort to understand their racist opinions and change their minds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis - that is a genuine effort to solve a problem, which unfortunately wouldn't be possible today because you'd be attacked by the mob for attempting something like this.

> Perhaps, but that all goes away if discrimination is eliminated from our culture.

I'm not sure this will go away; if certain people (or even entire industries) benefit from outrage they will happily find something else to be outraged about.

> We’ve found ways to combat pandemics in ways our ancestors thought impossible. We’ve found ways to travel to the moon. We’ve found ways to communicate instantaneously across the world. Yet imagining such a casual solution to social issues seems to be naïvely optimistic at best, delusional at worst.

The difference is that there is a major upside for solving these problems and little to no downside. I'm not sure whether mob/outrage/SJW culture will ever disappear instead of just digging even deeper for things to be offended about especially when money or virtue is at stake.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#685
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of Americans of any gender would be put off by a lot of very routine and candid professional communications that happen in Germany. I find American English in general to be tending toward the near universal avoidance of direct speech and statements, independent of speaker/listener identity. Importantly the speaker and listener are not consciously aware of this happening. The net result is that you can say liter…

Thank you for writing that article. I'm a native English speaker and I intend to speaker clearer because I read this.

Pleased to help speaker more clearer. That goal.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#686
This meshes with an experience I had a few years into my career which I'll never forget and had definitely influenced and will continue to influence my future interactions with women in tech.

I, cis white guy in the bay, was hired as a consultant to help build out a product and was pair programming with a woman founder & new engineer and made some passing comment about the CSS quality not being "ideal" or something of the sort. This was later brought up as something that they interpreted as some kind of sexism which completely caught me off guard and put me in a very awkward position of having to respond to that and explain that it was just poorly phrased, not sexism.

In the grand scheme this was very minor situation, e.g. no managers, HR, or social media involved, just between a few people on the project, but it's something I'll never forget and had colored how I interact with women going forward.

Basically I just want to avoid that ever happening again because if you're on the "No I'm not sexist" side of the argument, you've basically already lost in how society engages these days.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#687
post #73
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Think about what a white man would do" seems completely ambiguous to me. It's not a clear way to communicate. It would be better to follow up "I see you're hesitating to take credit for your work" with specific examples of what she might be able to say. Or you could give examples of behavior that people she knows have exhibited. Even if "what a white man would do" wasn't emotionally charged (and it is), it's not a g…

I can't imagine how someone would think that is a good suggestion. Are they implying white men are smarter/better so they always take the right decisions? If that's what they're doing, they're also implying, in this case, she, as a black woman, is not as smart as a white man. I'm a white man surrounded by mostly white people working on a field with mostly white men and I can't say what a white man would do in certain…

> Are they implying white men are smarter/better so they always take the right decisions? If that's what they're doing, they're also implying, in this case, she, as a black woman, is not as smart as a white man.

I suffer a bit from imposter syndrome, so I completely get what the GP is getting at, it was just phrased ambiguously.

Here is a disambiguated version: "Imagine what a privileged, entitled, overconfident, upper-midlle-class cishet white dude would do, and do that."

When you speak, people pay attention! Comic books pander to your adolescent fantasies! Your doohickey is the greatest thing since sliced bread! In fact, it's the greatest thing since unsliced bread! You're a frickin genius for dreaming it up! Your LoMoSo strategy is going to make billions for you, the few early employees that don't quit, and the VC that you choose to let invest! You're making the world a better place through scalable fault-tolerant distributed databases with asset transactions! The world is your oyster, and everyone who laughed at you in high school is going to be sorry! Bwahahaha!

Er, ahem. Pardon, got just a little carried away there.

Anyhoo... that advice has nothing to do with capability, talents, skills, or accomplishments, and everything to do with self-promotion and attitude. If you don't toot your own horn, who will?

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#688
post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are better and worse ways to communicate, sure. But fundamentally, you cannot control how people interpret the words that you say.

I disagree. Effective communication requires effort, but many people speak impulsively and fail to convey what they actually mean. If someone is unable to clearly express themselves without being misunderstood then either their thoughts need to be distilled further or the statement needs to be carefully worded. If I am not responsible for how people interpret my words, who is?

No matter how well you believe you have expressed yourself, it is always possible for someone to take your words the wrong way (not the way you intended them to be taken). You can, and should, take the time to craft what you say so that it best (given constraints) represents what you want the person to understand, but that is not always enough. Sometimes, people hear what they expect to hear, not what you say.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#689
post #408

If you are a woman you can easily counter this behavior by labelling it and saying that you don't have a porcelain skin. Bonuspoints if you laugh about a guy giving you super bad feedback and how this did not bother you. Putting people at ease around you (especially customers) is a critical entrepreneurial skill. You can't blame people for being cautious when a lot of people are buying into victim-narratives and conv…

As a woman, I adopted this solution about a year ago. I will literally tell new teammates, "Look, I'm new to this career, I have a TON to learn, and I would love to be critiqued and given advice on how I can improve. I operate under a good-faith policy, so I will always assume you're being helpful and not condescending, unless you're overwhelmingly insulting (ie: telling me women aren't made for leadership roles.)" I…

At a previous job, I worked under a woman who managed a practically-all-male engineering team. I think part of what made her successful at this was that people in our company had a great sense of humor, and she was an enthusiastic participant in our lunchtime bull sessions, ribbing each other and whatnot.

>Becca: What are you doing here? I figured they’d have locked you away in the psych ward for good by now.

>Scott: Nope. And what are you doing here? You haven’t killed off all your patients yet?

>Becca: Only person in this hospital I might kill is standing right in front of me.

>Scott: Be careful, I’m armed and dangerous picks up a central line placement practice set menacingly

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/23/friendship-is-counters...

Not only did these kind of conversations make the company a more fun place to work, they also made it easier to speak critically to each other, because our critical feedback didn't seem like a big deal in light of the daily ribbing. There wasn't a lot of corporate BS at that company either--maybe not a coincidence.

I imagine there are other things you could do, like curse frequently, if you wanted to broadcast that words don't easily upset you. But telling jokes seems best if you think of one.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#690
post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no irony here. If your plan to make society better is to infantilise group X because you view them as too weak to handle corrective feedback (or compete against group Y) they (as a group) will soon start to lose the benefits of success-selection that come with competition and correcting your course when you get feedback.

> you view them as too weak to handle corrective feedback The article says they don't get corrective feedback not because they're seen as too weak, but because it's too risky to give criticism, since it can be misinterpreted (or misrepresented) as sexism.

Sadly, people in general can't take feedback.
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