What went wrong with the Texas power grid? • Hacker News Board

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#681

Post by hedora » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 5:02 AM UTC

gregw2 wrote: post #213

gregw2 wrote: post #117

What went wrong is that the Texas legislature which owns Texas-specific grid process to avoid interference from the Feds didn't figure out how to also ensure Texas generator companies got compensated for weatherizing (and ensuring it was done). How many of the 24+6 recommendations from the NERC/FERC review of last time this happened in Texas (hint:2011) were taken up by the legislature or those at ERCOT they delegate…

Anecdote: All 7 developers in my Houston team (semi-geographically scattered in the city) lost power; half for >24 hrs (it's 10-25 degrees F here for the last 2-3 days). Most lost water for some stretch of time and some still don't have it. I don't think any completely lost heat (most have gas) but at least one person found their gas fireplace they were hoping would heat them up when out of power didn't really work t…

Modern fireplaces can be >90% efficient. Some pull feed air from the outside, creating no draft inside.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#682

Post by 8note » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 5:05 AM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #89

WorkingDead wrote: post #82

What a horrible article. First, Texas has its own independent grid as a matter of physics. Electricty travels at the speed of light so a continuous grid from coast to coast would get out of sync on phases just by travel distance. Texas just happens to be physically in the middle and large enough to have trouble by being supplied by either east or west grid. Second, ERCOT manages when utilizes can take assets out of c…

You know you can shift AC phase, right? That “out of sync” article doesn't seem right.

If you've got tooling to do it efficiently at scale, you could make a whole ton of money

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#683

Post by 7thaccount » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 5:05 AM UTC

worker767424 wrote: post #666

7thaccount wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how true this is. There are DC ties that allow Texas to import from both the East and West interconnection, but power is scarce everywhere now. So even if their region was fully AC connected, all the other nearby regions were scrapping the bottom of the barrel as well.

But the lines have a fixed capacity, and only Texas is having California-style rolling blackouts.

The West is having crazy snow too, so I assume it is just as bad. Just east of ERCOT is SPP which was also in an EEA3 and very low on capacity. Northeast of them is MISO which is also in an EEA3 event (ready to curtail load) and very low on capacity. So even if they weren't as islanded, they'd still be in a lot of trouble. Both SPP & MISO have also curtailed load which is always the last resort. This thread is focused on the Texas grid being isolated as a primary cause, when natural gas supply and low wind are much bigger problems to me.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#684

Post by alacombe » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 5:06 AM UTC

rtx wrote: post #47

America stop heating your houses, buy thik blankets and sweaters. Earth can't take it anymore.

Good luck not heating your home when it -15C or below outside.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#685

Post by alacombe » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 5:08 AM UTC

zamadatix wrote: post #457

thehappypm wrote: post #166

Texas is so so so overwhelmingly single family homes. How do these folks not have generators? This is supposed to be independent rootin’ tootin’ Texas.

Would take one hell of a generator to heat a home, even then you'd need to get fuel to them - which is what many of the power plants are having trouble with.

Even a cheapo 3kW generator is plenty to at least warm up a single room.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#686

Post by oivey » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 5:08 AM UTC

8note wrote: post #659

oivey wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t theoretical. A nuclear plant was knocked out of service due to water freezing at the current temperatures.

Which water though? Water related to the main cycle of the plant? Or something non-essential like the toilets, or some valve froze shut because water froze on the outside of it?

I don’t think the toilets would knock a nuclear power plant out of service.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#687

Post by dhritzkiv » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 5:12 AM UTC

oivey wrote: post #337

dhritzkiv wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since nuclear uses water, which freezes I suspect that the water involved in the steam generation (heavy water or otherwise) wouldn't freeze since it's inside/near the core, and constantly temperature regulated. The water used for cooling would go through heat exchanging and would also not freeze, especially if it's underground, or deep in a lake somewhere.

This isn’t theoretical. A nuclear plant was knocked out of service due to water freezing at the current temperatures.

I stand corrected.

I had trouble finding articles detailing how the nuclear plant was brought down, but then I found this:

> On Monday, Feb. 15, 2021, at 0537, an automatic reactor trip occurred at South Texas Project in Unit 1. The trip resulted from a loss of feedwater attributed to a cold weather-related failure of a pressure sensing lines to the feedwater pumps, causing a false signal, which in turn, caused the feedwater pump to trip. This event occurred in the secondary side of the plant (non-nuclear part of the unit). The reactor trip was a result of the feedwater pump trips. The primary side of the plant (nuclear side) is safe and secured. […] We evaluated Unit 2 and have confirmed that we do not have the same issues that caused the feedwater pump trips in Unit 1.

and subsequently, an answer to my question of 'how':

> Some people have wondered how “pressure sensing lines” for a feed water pump could have been affected by cold outside air temperatures. There are no turbine halls at STP, both of steam turbines are out in the open air. I’m sure there is a design reason for this choice, but it isn’t apparent.

(from https://atomicinsights.com/south-texas-project-unit-1-trippe...)

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#688

Post by Thrymr » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 5:14 AM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #276

monadic3 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas heaters still require electricity for basic management. I'd imagine heaters have batteries for specifically this case. If they don't, it's frankly a miracle if we don't lose anyone, and someone needs to get prosecuted.

It is not feasible to run a gas furnace off a battery (short of a "whole house" battery like a Powerball). It's more than just basic management. You need to run either a blower or a pump to distribute the heat throughout the house. You'd need a substantial battery to run a 1/3 HP motor for any length of time.

A gas boiler furnace with steam radiators typically only requires power for the thermostat and solenoid valve, which can indeed be powered by a small battery. This is assuming you have a pilot light, which many older furnaces do.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#689

Post by dhritzkiv » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 5:16 AM UTC

8note wrote: post #659

oivey wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t theoretical. A nuclear plant was knocked out of service due to water freezing at the current temperatures.

Which water though? Water related to the main cycle of the plant? Or something non-essential like the toilets, or some valve froze shut because water froze on the outside of it?

I didn't want to admit it in my original comment, but I basically thought something along these lines haha

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#690

Post by pixl97 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 5:17 AM UTC

gkop wrote: post #591

WillPostForFood wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right if they were trying to reduce load 50%, that's basically impossible for the reasons you mention. They were only trying to get it down 20% and it might have worked if they could have effectively rolled the blackouts. A lot of people have natural gas heat. It doesn't work when the power is out (no ignition, no thermostat, and no fan), but doesn't put a huge load on the electric grid when it is on. For a w…

> A lot of people have natural gas heat. It doesn't work when the power is out That doesn’t have to be the case. I have gas heat [0], that works fine when our power is out. (Not intending to detract from the rest of your point) [0] a basic Williams wall furnace on a 50 year old thermostat.

How does it blow heat around the house?