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WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

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Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

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post #676
post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it would force people to use better alternatives such as Signal or Telegram.

If you need to force people to use alternatives it's because they are not much better to begin with. I've used the Signal app and it's a bug fest. Telegram is not even encrypted by default and there is no option for encrypted groups.

> If you need to force people to use alternatives it's because they are not much better to begin with.

This isn't necessarily true - that's basically the problem with monopolies and the point of anti-trust. The network effect really can entrench an inferior product.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#682

As others have mentioned increasingly small businesses (like my outdoor exercise class) and loose communities (like my child's school year parent's group) rely on WhatsApp. persuading these loose connections to move away from WhatsApp for one's own benefit is almost impossible. Sacrificing access to these social amenities on the altar of incremental privacy invasion and power transfer to an unaccountable basically ma…

It might be enough to use many different messaging apps in parallel. This enabled competition and a smooth transition between them. For example, I tend to slowly move from WhatsApp to Telegram as more new groups I join are created in Telegram while old groups in WhatsApp tend to get abandoned. Also, I often access these groups through opera via their API and not the native apps. This is a natural development in a market where people use multiple apps in parallel: aggregators emerge and with that, the power shifts to them. That’s a good thing as it makes it easier to transition from one solution to the other.

What could be done legally to help this development is requiring services to offer open APIs to reduce the lock-in.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#683
post #667
post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

> So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. Ideally we'd have a polished, decentralized app. Signal is a compromise. I don't think the drawbacks are identical: Facebook's business model depends on violatings the privacy of the users. The Signal Foundation has no such ne…

* There is no OS verified path to install Signal or updates without being in Google/Apple proprietary ecosystems and submitting some usage metrics to them.

* You can't use signal on minority market share platforms even if they offer higher assurances of freedom, privacy, and security (RISC-V, OpenPOWER, etc.)

* Getting a phone number requires KYC in over 200 countries and carriers will happily sell you out as extensively documented and demonstrated by journalists buying owner info and GPS coordinates for any given phone numbers. Any service that hard requires a phone number is not prioritizing privacy.

* All metadata and TCP/IP metadata flows to a SPOF where signal employees, the ISP, or another entity inline could use network heuristics to deanonymize users, of dump the weak keys in SGX and get actual contact lists directly.

* If you want to use a privacy respecting signature verifying app store solution like F-Droid you are SOL. Moxie threatened to fight F-Droid or any other parties compiling/signing binaries from source code or doing forks or alternative implementations. He wishes to have complete control and the ability to rapidly push updates to all users quickly, be they benign or malicious. If someone coerces the signing key out of them, all signal conversations globally could be decrypted likely before anyone noticed.

I call all of this behaviour very privacy hostile. Published source code is moot if you are not allowed to use it or empower third parties like f-droid to hold it accountable.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#684
post #679
post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Signal has gotten better" is the new "Linux on the desktop". When I move to a new phone with Signal, is there already an (easy) mechanism to take along all my messages from my old phone? Last time I checked, there wasn't, and this is a core requirement, even if most people don't quite realize it when they start using Signal.

There is a mechanism that works very well and reliably. It involves manually copying an exported backup from the old phone to the new one, and entering a 16 digit (IIRC) passcode. Wheter you consider that easy or not depends on you. For me it was a 5 minute procedure

Right, I used that procedure once, it's completely inadequate. It relies on having access to the old phone, knowing how to get files off it (and onto a new phone; both of which probably assume you know how to navigate the filesystem), and you basically need to follow documentation to do it, it's completely undiscoverable (maybe that last part has changed).

All of which is completely unacceptable in 2021 for a product meant for a large audience. Messaging is integral to people's lives, to the point where people keep 10+ year old phones because they have messages on them from people that passed away and they can't figure out how to move the messages across or to a new system. As much as it pains me to say, there just aren't any production quality alternatives to WhatsApp that can take over. And don't even get me started on Element/Matrix...

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#685
On one hand I never read through any TC or license and never agreed to anything in them. I'm just clicking buttons to be able to use the app. Often I don't even read the text on the button. And I think most people behave this way.

On the other hand as tech savvy person I have no expectation about what happens to the data that I enter into the app beyond expecting it not to be immediately published for everyone to see unless that's what the app explicitely does.

I know data I entered might be viewed by unspecified number of people all over the world during normal operation, and that this data might be published at some point in the future. I'm hoping none of the unknown people that can view my data knows me personally or uses this data against me.

There's no end to end encryption hosted service I currently trust to do what they say. If I were to transfer information that I don't want under no circumstances to go public I'd have to research what wikileaks is now using for communication.

That's the contract I'm operating under. I think it's a good balance because it's aligned with physical reality.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#686
post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can think of it like email. Maybe you started on AOL and later realized AOL is terrible. You could export your address book and move to a client/server you trust more and notify all your contacts from the new location. This is the same story on Matrix and what I mean when I say it is a freedom respecting decentralized service. You are also free to run your own DNS to a dedicated EMS instance then later point to y…

> Maybe you started on AOL and later realized AOL is terrible. You could export your address book and move to a client/server you trust more and notify all your contacts from the new location. The whole point is in avoiding starting with an AOL like service. So far only big matrix provider are reliable and performant enough to be usable. This is @gmail.com all over again but with @matrix.org tld. Except you won't be…

> So far only big matrix provider are reliable and performant enough to be usable.

I've been running a Matrix homeserver on a 1/1 VM for years without any issues. There is no downside to choosing a small server, you can still federate with everyone else. That's the entire point.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#687
post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it would force people to use better alternatives such as Signal or Telegram.

that'll never happen - WhatsApp is almost WeChat for Europe, it's ubiquitous and the network effect is so strong you'll really struggle to get masses of people to switch away fom it. 99% of people outside of the HN bubble will just look at the dialog, click OK and carry on as normal.

If WhatsApp can’t be legally compliant then they simply can’t provide the service. It’s up to them.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#688
post #198

I'd love to give up WhatsApp, but network effects are key here. I tried moving my extended family off WhatsApp onto Signal a couple of years ago and it failed miserably because the app wasn't nearly as easy to use, and they had all their friends on Whatsapp. Has anyone here had any success moving a large group of people onto something like Signal or Telegram? If so, do you have any tips?

Sure the network effect is strong but let’s not forget how WhatsApp got here in the first place: people installing a strange new app, often shared by their friends via a text message invite link. I remember sitting in a circle with a group of friends one night 10+ years ago while each of us installed WhatsApp and had our first conversations on the app. It was a time when BBM was dominant and cross-platform messaging…

I remember paying a dollar to use WhatsApp for an year. I wish it remained independent and subscription-supported.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#690

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy pol…

Anybody interested in SIM cards?

UK/IE/RO/MD/UA/RU/etc - cheap and fast delivery :D

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