A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#681

Post by LMYahooTFY » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

panarky wrote: post #471

scsilver wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I full on support their goal to clean up their yard before moving somewhere else. Employees are stakeholders and can use their leverage as they please. You somehow cast a negative moral light on workers for using this leverage when every other stakeholder, managment, stockholders, board members, government agencies, voters all use their leverage to change the ecosystem. Entitlement? You are entitled to what you can g…

This shows how deeply ingrained right-wing ideology has become in America. Outside America it is obvious that billionaires, oligarchs and CEOs wield power in their own self-interest, and that workers benefit from collective action in their own self-interest. But inside America the billionaires, oligarchs and CEOs are mythologized as benevolent actors, and workers should be thankful for the gifts graciously bestowed u…

I disagree that this is clearly indicative of anything.

>But inside America the billionaires, oligarchs and CEOs are mythologized as benevolent actors, and workers should be thankful for the gifts graciously bestowed upon them.

I've spent my life living in different parts of America, and this sounds very out of touch.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/03/02/most-america...

I've come across other polling that indicates similar trends.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#682

Post by esoterica » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

thesuitonym wrote: post #538

finnthehuman wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions Because everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose, and the structural changes to the workplaces that are inherent with unionization. And if/when I/others start spitballing about what those might be we're treated like dolts uneducated on organized labor, and should just…

>tell me what the terms of the contract will be and I'll decide for myself. Nobody can tell you what the contract will be because the contract won't be drawn up until the union exists and has enough members to bargain. What you DO know is the current contract you have. You DO know that you have virtually no say in what is in that contract, "accept it or leave," is not having a say in that contract. You DO know that a…

> You DO know that you have virtually no say in what is in that contract, "accept it or leave," is not having a say in that contract.

Not only is "accept it or leave it" very much a form of "having a say" in your work parameters, it's a much more powerful way of exerting your preferences than voting.

If 100,000 people are voting on a contract your 1/100,000th share of the influence functionally rounds to zero. The contract will reflect your coworkers aggregate preferences, which will in general be completely orthogonal to your own preferences. On the other hand, when you shop around for a job you have unbounded freedom to decide where you want to apply to and what working conditions are you willing to accept. If you want more job stability and better working hours in exchange for lower pay, someone will be willing to offer it to you. If you want "fuck you, pay me", someone else will offer that too.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#683

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #481

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve Unfortunately, through my own experience being in one & observing other unions, they often end up serving the organization of the union itself. They may still work for the workers, but also end up making decisions that are better for the union than for the workers. Right now, my kids are learning remotely. Howe…

[deleted]

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#684

Post by onion2k » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #611

onion2k wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. Employees pushing for change from the inside is probably the only thing that could ever make Google change, so this is absolutely a good thing. If you are an engineer at Google and can't get a job somewhere else, I don't know what to tell you. So…

Oh, the perils of having a 600k TC job and having to step down to a job only clearing 250k while you climb the ladder again. Oh those poor senior Google SWEs. That’s not being trapped. That’s being greedy. There’s nothing wrong with trying to preserve massive TCs with the WLB of Google but let’s not pretend there is actually any plight here.

That’s not being trapped. That’s being greedy.

Tomato. Tomato. (This doesn't work on the internet.)

No doubt it's a trap of their own making but it is a trap nonetheless. The idea of giving up the fancy things that you've worked hard for, maybe having to sell your house, take your kids out of a school you pay for, etc just so you can leave the company you work for and go somewhere 'better' is a hard choice that no doubt feels selfish. The decision has a significant and material impact on other people after all.

Very few of us would prefer to earn a 250k salary that comes with the freedom to move to other companies, even though that's a lot, if there's a 600k job on offer instead. We'd all take the higher paying job and maybe regret it later. I don't think it's very fair to suggest those who are in that position are wrong or stupid to have put themselves there.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#685

Post by Animats » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

This isn't a real union. It's more a lobbying association, like the IEEE. They're not trying to get a contract with Google.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#686

Post by minimuffins » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

antisoeu wrote: post #278

UncleMeat wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. Google made something like 300,000 in profit per employee in 2019. There are regular complaints about benefits and pay multipliers being cut back. Why shouldn't workers seek to capture as much of their labor as possible? People don't seem to complain when businesses do that.

Just call it what it is, greed. Why is it greedy if company owners want to make money, but "good and social" if workers want to make money? I don't think the "earnings per employee" metric entitles employees to anything.

No, what "entitles" them is that they do the work and generate the profit and therefore have the power to organize themselves into a coherent, self-interested group that can withhold their labor if they don't get what they want.

Who cares what you think they're "entitled" to?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#687

Post by jjcon » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #218

tsjq wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this the beginning of the end of Google?

Haven't we been hearing about the beginning to the end for years now?

Yeah and they’ve killed off dozens of projects, profits and revenue are down, innovation is long out the window and the quality of their products has gone to hell.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#688

Post by criddell » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

jskell725 wrote: post #554

criddell wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The union seeks out what the membership wants. Teachers want seniority to be protected and rewarded, so that's what they fight for.

What force prevents unions bosses from becoming corrupt and self serving; just like we can agree a corporate boss can become? It's silly to pretend they just "always work"

Who is pretending they always work? Does something have to be perfect in order to be worth pursuing?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#689

Post by dls2016 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

Moosdijk wrote: post #107

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

>>engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better". This "if you don't like it here, go work somewhere else" kind of reasoning disproportionately balances the power towards the employer. Instead of fixing problems, it leads to removing those that are affected. This is exactly what unions are for.

I like that everyone sort of forgets about the time the big tech firms were caught in a wage-fixing cabal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#690

Post by whenitrains » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #611

onion2k wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. Employees pushing for change from the inside is probably the only thing that could ever make Google change, so this is absolutely a good thing. If you are an engineer at Google and can't get a job somewhere else, I don't know what to tell you. So…

Oh, the perils of having a 600k TC job and having to step down to a job only clearing 250k while you climb the ladder again. Oh those poor senior Google SWEs. That’s not being trapped. That’s being greedy. There’s nothing wrong with trying to preserve massive TCs with the WLB of Google but let’s not pretend there is actually any plight here.

If they are in fact worth $1m TC are you ok with them "only" making $600k TC?