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“I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

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Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really true? I've interviewed ex-FAANG employees at some jobs and there was never any pressure to hire them, and I didn't feel like any one of them would be treated as a god if hired. They were pretty universally above average though. They were also not "walking in to captain" anything. They were applying for standard engineering jobs. Think of an average individual-contributor software engineer from, say, Fa…

The amount of osmosis learning of how things should be that comes from working somewhere that things were that way is hard to explain. The density of good ideas you get exposed to has a huge effect, even if you aren't in leadership. It also doesn't necessarily come across in interviews, it's reflexes you might not realize you have. I was very skeptical about this, then I worked for one. Now I get it.

I'm not in a leading role but I did "impactful" things like introduce CI to a company. I'm not sure that it matters what position you have, because if you are the first one doing something you actually get to do a lot of decision making.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say you didn't need to solve algorithmic problems. That's why you study and go to college. I said you needed to be fast.

But an 'assembly line', line-of-business programmer has almost no need to solve algorithmic problems. Why would they test that if that's what they needed?

It's the wedding ring of interviews. You're supposed to show that you are invested.

The fact that the diamond in the wedding ring is worthless is actually a feature.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#683
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same background and I think you either missed something, or your degree was much more EE focused. I had the required data structures + algorithms classes as part of my computer engineering curriculum

A lot of CE degrees are EE with just the barest veneer of software to meet ABET requirements. Mine had data structures and software engineering as CE-specific requirements (along with a dash of microarchitecture and HDL/FPGA stuff), the CS algorithms course was an elective that obviously gave priority to CS majors. Beyond that, we had a department head that really only cared about shoving as many EEs as possible into…

Compared to software creating a circuit design is a complete nightmare. With software you can get away with a lot of shady things but in EE every tiny detail can matter. You can do very simple PCBs as a hobbyist but it won't even compare to what the professionals are capable of doing. In software we have hobbyists creating extremely important libraries that are used by millions of people.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - it's not enough to be able to solve the problems, you need to be able to solve them on the spot, without much thinking, in an interview context Sounds like they're looking for assembly line programmers - crank out the code, pass it off, then on to the next piece of code without pause. This would be a nightmare for me. The high salaries and prestige of these companies definitely would not be worth it. I'm not neur…

It's because when companies get that big and famous they no longer need that many creative individual thinkers, they need obedient drones. With disproportionately large numbers of applicants they get, they are able to make you jump through all the hoops they put in front of you, because if you won't there are thousands of others who will.

Or, with the crazy amount of applicants they get, it’s very hard to come up with an alternative process e.g. pair programming for a day like what some small companies can afford to. They have to be able to do interviews efficiently.

Interview is hard. A while ago there was a post by Jane Street that explicitly emphasized this point. They also require algorithms questions even though programmers there write a lot of OCaml. I guess if you were in the position of the interviewer it would also be hard for you to come up with alternatives that are much better for all sides involved.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#685

Unless you've made it to your "endgame" company that you're happy to stay at for a while, I feel investing anything more than the bare minimum to get your assigned work done is worth less than just grinding leetcode and otherwise studying for interviews. Doing an actual good job, above and beyond, is not going to be worth much when you're looking for your next job. Thus we're now seeing the rise of Professional Inter…

I feel you. I feel fooled too. I worked my ass off at nameless orgs that were willing to hire a no-credential computer science graduate. Always going "above and beyond", built a reputation for getting things done, almost always delivered stuff on time, took ownership, covered up for changing and incomplete requirements, entertained last minute pivots, did what a team lead and architect should be doing even though was…

Thanks for sharing! I can relate I am also on a same boat and realized now leetcode is the way out then serving non FAANG org which I thought will serve me well for my loyalty and hard work I gave so far.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NGL, I'd jump through hoops for 250k + other compensation Part of why this has stuck around for so long is that so many people are willing to do that because it's a life-altering amount of money

Not my thing personally (at least not today). I could buy a lot more toys and BS and retire earlier if I took one of those jobs, but my already generous (not by FAANG standards) programmer salary is enough and it comes along with a sane schedule and reasonable work expectations. The value in this is I get more time outside of work to enjoy my life, which is worth more than an extra pile of lucre when I already get by…

Feels to me there are a lot of stereotypes and misconceptions about FAANG floating around in this thread, which I guess is not exactly surprising given the type of post this is (criticism of the "broken" interview process). It almost feels like some people find excuses to not even try, or have some sort of sour grape mentality/avert their eyes from the issue, if they feel themselves unlikely to pass the interview, even though they haven't spent the time required to master the algorithms questions at all. (Of course, there might also be people who simply find it quite hard to find such time, as mentioned in the article, which is understandable.)

My understanding is that those companies themselves also freely acknowledge that interviewing is hard. Due to the sheer volume of applicants, fast algorithms questions is the most reasonable compromise they can find at the moment. If you were in the position of the interviewer, it would also be hard for you to come up with an alternative that works for all sides involved. So instead of complaining about this reality, one needs to face up to the challenge.

It is actually a paradox: You seem to be unfree and doing something pointless when you were grinding interview questions. But after you've made it, it would suddenly be very easy for you to have a lot of freedom and security in your life with all the capital you have accumulated. In a sense it's like how college entrance exams work. It's unfortunate but again, if no better practical solution could be found at the moment, one just has to face the reality and do it. It could even be fun. Talking about "ideals" wouldn't get you anywhere in the real world.

Regarding work-life balance, perks and life quality, just as the comments who replied to you pointed out, working for big tech is most likely one of the best options you can have out there, compared to many smaller-scale companies.

The one valid thing I think you may get by not working for FAANG is complete freedom in shaping what you're working on. However this is hard anywhere unless you're the founder/executive of the company yourself. If that's what you're after and you have the safety to pursue it, sure. However, in terms of working as a common employee, there are very few possible reasons why a place could be better than big tech.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#687
post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree. It is soul-sucking at times, but nowhere near as soul-sucking as the life I came from and I will never stop being grateful for that. If I want more excitement from working, I can always pick up the exact work of my personal interest on the side (but I don't, because there are so many other interesting things to do outside of software). I'd rather have great security and quality of life from the work th…

Absolutely! There's a kind of beautiful freedom about it, too. A number of people (myself included) seek to align work and passion all in one, which is fine, except it's certainly not the only (or, indeed, even close to "best") way to live and work. I've been lucky because my passion is in a field that now actually has applications in both theory and practice, after 50-or-so years of lying in relative academic obscur…

This comment chain is well said. There are more likely to be various random events that screw you over or suddenly put extra pressure on you at smaller companies, not to mention the lack of perks and compensation. Recently an analogy that I've come up with is index fund investing: Sure one can attempt all sorts of creative investment combinations/maneuvers, and sometimes they do make it big, but in the end, the most reliable and care-free way to grow your wealth is simply to follow the mainstream advice and go for the index funds, even though they "sound" boring af. They are recommended by the mainstream for a reason just like how people flock to big tech companies for a reason (at least this still applies in our current day and age). I've had some alternative ideas about my career with various excuses (e.g. I'd only work with a functional language), but increasingly I realize that I should probably just quit all the tossing around and go for such a path instead. It's similar with my investments: Had I not performed various stupid active trades here and there and just put my money into the index funds, or even just parked my money in cryptocurrency and held on to them, I would have got amazing, carefree returns.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#688

I've just landed a job at a FAANG company. Some random subjective comments based on my experience: - it was hard work - there was no way I could have passed these interviews without all the work. - my past experience and education barely helped me for the interview - it's not enough to be able to solve the problems, you need to be able to solve them on the spot, without much thinking, in an interview context - I pass…

> - it's not enough to be able to solve the problems, you need to be able to solve them on the spot, without much thinking, in an interview context Sounds like they're looking for assembly line programmers - crank out the code, pass it off, then on to the next piece of code without pause. This would be a nightmare for me. The high salaries and prestige of these companies definitely would not be worth it. I'm not neur…

> Sounds like they're looking for assembly line programmers

Feels to me there are a lot of stereotypes and misconceptions about FAANG floating around in this thread, which I guess is not exactly surprising given the type of post this is (criticism of the "broken" interview process).

In your case it's more understandable if you wouldn't like working a conventional job, since you mentioned you're not neurotypical (though I guess you would most likely find work at most smaller software shops even more suffocating).

However, for the majority of commentators, it almost feels like some people find excuses to not even try, or have some sort of sour grape mentality/avert their eyes from the issue, if they feel themselves unlikely to pass the interview, even though they haven't spent the time required to master the algorithms questions at all. (Of course, there might also be people who simply find it quite hard to find such time, as mentioned in the article, which is understandable.)

My understanding is that those companies themselves also freely acknowledge that interviewing is hard. Due to the sheer volume of applicants, fast algorithms questions is the most reasonable compromise they can find at the moment. If you were in the position of the interviewer, it would also be hard for you to come up with an alternative that works for all sides involved. So instead of complaining about this reality, one needs to face up to the challenge.

I would conjecture that most lower-paying "programming" jobs, e.g. writing enterprise Java, are much much more "assembly line" and "soul-sucking" than jobs at top-notch tech companies, which should offer a decent amount of creativity and freedom for one as an ordinary employee.

It is actually a paradox: You seem to be unfree and doing something pointless when you were grinding interview questions. But after you've made it, it would suddenly be very easy for you to have a lot of freedom and security in your life with all the capital you have accumulated. In a sense it's like how college entrance exams work. It's unfortunate but again, if no better practical solution could be found at the moment, one just has to face the reality and do it. It could even be fun. Talking about "ideals" wouldn't get you anywhere in the real world.

The one valid thing I think you may get by not working for FAANG is complete freedom in shaping what you're working on. However this is hard anywhere unless you're the founder/executive of the company yourself. If that's what you're after and you have the safety to pursue it, sure. However, in terms of working as an ordinary employee, there are very few possible reasons why a place could be better than big tech.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#689
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, now that you've started working. Have you actually applied any of it ? To make an analogy, I'm always perplexed at how you're asked to build an EPR on the spot and then all you do is general electricity mundane work. I've seen a lot of EPR builder beeing incapable of simple wiring ...

What's an EPR? I did a search, and none of the meanings I found seem to fit.

It's an Eagle-Pangolin Recombinator.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#690
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does individual defection even matter? The purpose of this isn't to put pressure on job seekers, it's to put pressure on employers. The whole idea of "policing" the members seems strange to me. If you're the type of job seeker who has no objection to leetcode, you wouldn't join. And if you're the type of employer who refuses to do anything else, this would be the last place you'd look for hiring. The goal is to publi…

OP said the objective was to create a critical mass of people refusing so companies would have to adapt. That's what wouldn't work. If it's just a niche job board then that's not an issue, but it also seems like one of those things that should have been done already, probably has been, and isn't popular for a reason.

There is already a large number of people who hate audition-style interviews. They don't want to defect.

A public group actually makes it easier for people to avoid defecting. It's very difficult for a job candidate to talk to employers about this when you're just some lone weirdo with idiosyncratic principles. It's much easier to have that discussion when there's a public group of people you can point to with the same principles. There's strength in numbers.

Consider it a kind of "Alcoholics Anonymous" for interviews. You wouldn't say that can't work because people defect. Yes, people defect and drink again, but they joined AA in order to avoid drinking, and the purpose of the group is to help them with the goal of not drinking. And also to remove the private shame of admitting a problem, by showing publicly that it's a very common problem. This is not a perfect analogy by any means, but the gist is similar.

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