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EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

statewatch.org

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Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#681

Post by CivBase »

mkhpalm wrote: post #388
eivarv wrote: post #30

I'm sick and tired of seeing tech-illiterate decision makers on both international levels attempt to thwart our right to privacy. Does anyone know what we or I can do (in this case specifically) to help fight this idiocy?

Its a bit naive to believe decision makers are tech-illiterate. Why not consider that they are both literate and understand what they are asking for? Is it because we don't like what that means?

I'd definitely say they are "tech-illiterate". The mere suggestion that we should seek to limit terrorist access to encryption is evident of a fundamental misunderstanding of the technology.

Encryption is not a product. It is not an application made by Apple, Microsoft, Google, or whoever which you use to secure data. Encryption is an idea. Humans have been encrypting information since long before computers. We cannot stop it.

It's like arguing that we should limit terrorist access to algebra. I'd say anyone arguing for that is illiterate when it comes to algebra. Likewise, I'd say anyone arguing for limitations on encryption is illiterate when it comes to encryption.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#682

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

bildung wrote: post #593
lenkite wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the majority of crime in Sweden committed by migrants ? https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12115-019-00436-8

It appears this study shows that the majority of suspects for crimes are immigrants, which is an important distinction. I have no knowledge about the situation in Sweden, but in Germany there are known statistical problems like immigrants both having a higher chance of becoming suspects ("Tatverdachteffekt") and crimes where an immigrant is suspected are more likely to be reported ("Anzeigeeffekt"). Stastistics about…

I would bet basically anything that inferring "did commit" from "is suspect" works very well in aggregate.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#683

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

jordanbeiber wrote: post #580
lenkite wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the majority of crime in Sweden committed by migrants ? https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12115-019-00436-8

Yes, exactly kind of my point. I’m not suggesting however that because they are immigrants they commit more crime. Note most violence is committed by 2nd generation immigrants - so they’ve been born here. How’s that for a failure of society... They are simply people on the outside living surrounded by people leading lives they cannot relate to. We’ve made it terribly difficult to attain this norm life as well making…

One thing that's great for societal stability is not too much inequality of wealth. Another thing is cultural homogeneity. We're probably seeing both at play in Sweden.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#684

Post by KMag »

Less relevant to European regulation, but the FBI's attempt to use phone taps/hotel room bugs to blackmail Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. int committing suicide[0], is a good example of why we should be suspicious of even lawful intercept. Terrorism is bad, but I think we can all agree a world where the US civil rights movement was stillborn would be much worse than what we have. (They went after more civil rights leaders than just Dr. King.) More recently, FISA courts have a terrible record of filtering out unreasonable lawful intercept requests.

Are there any comparable post-WWII Eurpopean abuses that should make citizens think twice about blanket law enforcement back-doors?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#685

Post by nix23 »

crististm wrote: post #661
nix23 wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really missed your point a bit. But i watched a documentary about the US, where Children's under 12 are not allow to play outside without supervision, they get picket up by the police and the parents got big problems. Here, they run around the hole day in the forests with Swiss or Scout-knifes and lighters and some sausages in the backpack. It's just terrible to think that your children's are safe because they sit…

I don't get it how we got here. We were allowed to play outside (East Europe) near the house when we were six. Gradually increasing the comfort perimeter as we grew up. Twelve? I could have roamed the entire city if I had enough time to get back for lunch.

Maybe listen to too much Media/News etc, when you hear just bad things happening, you think it's just a matter of time until that happens to me or my family.

So you close your mind (because everyone else is bad, and every Adult that speaks with my children is a pedo) then you buy a gun (even if the chance is much higher that exactly with that gun something bad happens) and your Children's needs to be under constant observation and they need to learn that one should trust no one, you life in constant fear and because of that you vote for trumps.

>if I had enough time to get back for lunch.

Exactly that was my biggest fear, to late for lunch meant grumpy Mum and Dad..and no roaming for the next two days.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#686

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

freeflight wrote: post #533
KMag wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. certainly has a problem with gun violence, but I fear gun access is the proximal problem while our cultural relationship with violence and revenge is the root of the problem. (See also death penalty support, recent violent protests in Oregon and Washington, etc.) Note that the areas with very high rates of legal gun ownership aren't the hotspots of gun violence [0]. Switzerland and several other Eurpean coun…

> Switzerland and several other Eurpean countries have very high rates of gun ownership, but low rates of gun violence. They also have vastly stricter gun regulation laws, and while ownership rates are high in some, the US is an extreme outlier and no other country comes even close. Because nobody in any European country thinks they have a "right" to own a gun, most of them could if they wanted to, but they simply do…

Saying Switzerland has "vastly" stricter gun laws /might/ be true if mushing the U.S. into a whole, but it ignores the very important variations at the state level. Some states have very strict regimes that compare to Switzerland's, and in some you can just walk into a store and buy long guns if you're of age.

I totally agree about the responsibility thing.

Concerning the "dog shoots owner" headlines, you should ignore that sort of thing. Those sorts of incidents are super rare. They hit headlines /because/ they're rare and therefore interesting.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#687

Post by feanaro »

Shingbogle wrote: post #621
feanaro wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why they are not proposing this instead (well, I do, because they'd prefer more power), but I do not find this proposal acceptable either. The fact that you might be able to see that a government read a message of yours offers little assurance that the government will not start abusing this power. After all, what possible recourse do we have after we start seeing these notifications on our messages? Cert…

But they already do that with warrants. As long as they have a warrant and aren't breaking encryption by putting in backdoors, they should have the ability to listen in on conversations. That's how it is now without encryption.

Yes, without encryption, they have that possibility, after they prove probable cause. Without getting into a debate whether that is appropriate, it is important to keep in mind that it is the citizen's right to privacy of conversations is the more fundamental here. The government does not have a right to snoop on everyone's conversations, they simply have this possibility in certain situations.

So, for me, this changes nothing.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#688

Post by sizt »

KMag wrote: post #684

Less relevant to European regulation, but the FBI's attempt to use phone taps/hotel room bugs to blackmail Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. int committing suicide[0], is a good example of why we should be suspicious of even lawful intercept. Terrorism is bad, but I think we can all agree a world where the US civil rights movement was stillborn would be much worse than what we have. (They went after more civil rights leade…

As usual the malevolent statists in Brussels care nothing about the rights of the INDIVIDUAL ... just "government, industry, and society", whatever "society" means:

"Encryption is a necessary means of protecting fundamental rights and the digital security of governments, industry and society."

But they did reveal themselves by putting the list in order of importance, with "government" first of course.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#689

Post by feanaro »

Veedrac wrote: post #634
feanaro wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you admit defeat on the politics aspect of it? Because every one of your points was political, save for 1a.

This kind of comment is exactly why I'm avoiding the politics side of things. I don't want to subject myself to this sort of bad faith jabbing, as much as it comes with the topic.

It was not meant as a jab, and certainly not bad faith. I'm just telling you that your comment was of exactly the same character. Either refrain from making a political comment yourself or have it be responded to.

Making a political comment but then trying to shut down discussion of it by stating that you will not participate in political discussions is a double standard, though perhaps you were unaware that you were doing it.

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